Does your cartridge rustle?

the thin end of the wedge
Boltman92124
senior member
senior member
Posts: 746
Joined: 23 Jan 2016 00:18
Location: San Diego

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by Boltman92124 » 27 Dec 2018 23:15

eliash wrote:
27 Dec 2018 20:12
H. callahan wrote:
27 Dec 2018 16:43
You´re welcome.
During playback i have found static discharge just to sound like a dustlick. What does the "new" fading sound exactly sound like?
Apart from that i´d try to tap the coils of the Benz. Only very carefully and only if possible etc., but this might give another hint from where these sounds are comming from.
Regarding the fading noise, it can be best described as a rustling noise breaking up into less and less individual clicks while fading. I was attempted to exclude electrostatic build-up on the isolating parts (basically the suspension rubber) by applying a bit of antistatic agent directly (which collects conducting humidity from the ambient air, which then extinguishes any charge)...maybe after new year´s day.
The whole thing reminds me somehow of a worn out car suspension, even though sounding different...

P.S. That´s exactly the curse of using a Stax L700 for vinyl listening, you might get hooked onto all sorts of vinyl noise never heard before, better reserve that for HD digital-audio...
No doubt. My Stax cans unveil every last flaw of vinyl listening..but the sound is glorious when the music starts! #-o

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 29 Dec 2018 17:46

eliash wrote:
27 Dec 2018 20:12

Regarding the fading noise, it can be best described as a rustling noise breaking up into less and less individual clicks while fading. I was attempted to exclude electrostatic build-up on the isolating parts (basically the suspension rubber) by applying a bit of antistatic agent directly (which collects conducting humidity from the ambient air, which then extinguishes any charge)...maybe after new year´s day.
The whole thing reminds me somehow of a worn out car suspension, even though sounding different...

P.S. That´s exactly the curse of using a Stax L700 for vinyl listening, you might get hooked onto all sorts of vinyl noise never heard before, better reserve that for HD digital-audio...
I see.
I think when you lift up the cartridge off the record the cantilever more or less slams onto the yoke hole edge and by that the coils are shaked. As these vibrations decrease after the cantilever made contact with the yoke hole it could create this fading noise.
I think this noise also could be created by tapping the cartridges housing when its lifted off the record.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 01 Jan 2019 18:28

H. callahan wrote:
29 Dec 2018 17:46
eliash wrote:
27 Dec 2018 20:12

Regarding the fading noise, it can be best described as a rustling noise breaking up into less and less individual clicks while fading. I was attempted to exclude electrostatic build-up on the isolating parts (basically the suspension rubber) by applying a bit of antistatic agent directly (which collects conducting humidity from the ambient air, which then extinguishes any charge)...maybe after new year´s day.
The whole thing reminds me somehow of a worn out car suspension, even though sounding different...

P.S. That´s exactly the curse of using a Stax L700 for vinyl listening, you might get hooked onto all sorts of vinyl noise never heard before, better reserve that for HD digital-audio...
I see.
I think when you lift up the cartridge off the record the cantilever more or less slams onto the yoke hole edge and by that the coils are shaked. As these vibrations decrease after the cantilever made contact with the yoke hole it could create this fading noise.
I think this noise also could be created by tapping the cartridges housing when its lifted off the record.
Not exactly, the main rustling noise occurs with free play of the cantilever (in the yoke hole), no matter if I use the lift to balance it, nor if I touch the fixed tonearm (in its resting position) very carefully from below with that soft (=low contact noise) urethane cleaning pad. Both directions, up or down, generate a similar rustling noise during movement.
The fading noise is still audible when the cantilever has already touched the yoke hole´s edge firmly. There is no cantilever movement (no slamming or sideways-slipping) visible anymore, before this very quiet noise decays below the preamp´s noise level.
I will investigate further...

Happy New Year to all of you!

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 02 Jan 2019 04:42

Strange indeed.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 03 Jan 2019 21:03

H. callahan wrote:
02 Jan 2019 04:42
Strange indeed.
Further investigation revealed 2 things:
- By deep breathing humid air on the cart (instead of applying antistatic agent to the cart), it became clear that electrostatic discharge is not the reason for the rustling noise. The humidy condensed on the whole system, so that even the formely isolating layer between the screws and the metal cart body broke partially and caused some hum noise when touching the mounting screws with a finger...
- While experimenting, I found that blowing air at the cart results in a similar rustling noise as the stylus movement causes. It must be some kind of microphonic effect, which can be heard with headphones at max. preamp volume.
Currently I am a little bit puzzled why this happens, the cantilever has so little area for microphonic effects that it seems improbable that it causes the blow noise pickup.


Any new ideas welcome!

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 07 Jan 2019 11:28

H. callahan wrote:
02 Jan 2019 04:42
Strange indeed.
Another test with a different preamp (mic preamp) excluded some minimal doubts in my modified T+A MM preamp board (AD745KR opamp upgrade & gain setting refinement) used here...carefully listening to the noise again, when lifting the stylus, revealed the fading rustling noise breaking up into into less and less ticks for over a second after the cantilever has a rest on the yoke´s borehole. This is of course below the surface noise of the record, but it could reveal the source...when browsing the web, s.o. mentioned the critical damping of the stylus/cantilever/coil assy...
- Is there any other, than the inherent rubber suspension damping (aside from the HF-cantilever resonances) in a MC-cart???
- What role plays the prestressing wire in this???

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 07 Jan 2019 16:09

No idea on both. I´d still try to tap the coils carefully when the cantilever is resting.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 07 Jan 2019 17:04

H. callahan wrote:
07 Jan 2019 16:09
No idea on both. I´d still try to tap the coils carefully when the cantilever is resting.
Puh, I really fear tapping the coils, it´s a high output MC, the wire is so thin, you could probably blow it away...a hair looks really thick compared to this...maybe I try touching the iron cross instead...

Contemplating about the nature of the major noise during cantilever movement, it could be that it consists of large amount of tiny ticks, assembling the rustle. A single tick could be caused by a very tiny "jumping" movement of some part of the cart...but what part???

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 09 Jan 2019 05:13

Yes, touching the iron cross should be sufficient and safer. Maybe you can use something made of soft rubber to touch the cross to further decrease the danger of dammage.

I still suspect the coils to be the source of the noise. I do not have a theory what exactly does produce the noise, whether its a mechanical or electromagnetic effect, but i think the noise is generated by them coils vibrating. As far as i recall my Grado no logner did produce that noise after i had damped the coils.
Now as the wires, the coils are wound with, are as thin as you describe them, its unlikely that these wires can be wound tight onto the coils as then the wires just would rip.
Now if the wires do have some play on the coil they of course are free to vibrate a little - and as they are in a magnetic field the wires then do produce some electricity. As there are still some windings of wire on a MC cartridge it might be the case that each vibrating wire does produce a single tick, which then accumulate to the rustling noise.

By gently tapping a coil, or the coil cross, one could be pretty sure that its the coils which do generate the noise, especially because the cantilever on your cartridge does have a resting place in the joke hole, which ensures that its not the cantilever being involved in the generating of the noise as the cantilever is rather standing still. Just when the tapping isn´t too hard of course.

If the noise is generated by tapping the coils cross gently one could go on thinking about what the exact cause of the noise is.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 10 Jan 2019 18:15

H. callahan wrote:
09 Jan 2019 05:13
Yes, touching the iron cross should be sufficient and safer. Maybe you can use something made of soft rubber to touch the cross to further decrease the danger of dammage.

I still suspect the coils to be the source of the noise. I do not have a theory what exactly does produce the noise, whether its a mechanical or electromagnetic effect, but i think the noise is generated by them coils vibrating. As far as i recall my Grado no logner did produce that noise after i had damped the coils.
Now as the wires, the coils are wound with, are as thin as you describe them, its unlikely that these wires can be wound tight onto the coils as then the wires just would rip.
Now if the wires do have some play on the coil they of course are free to vibrate a little - and as they are in a magnetic field the wires then do produce some electricity. As there are still some windings of wire on a MC cartridge it might be the case that each vibrating wire does produce a single tick, which then accumulate to the rustling noise.

By gently tapping a coil, or the coil cross, one could be pretty sure that its the coils which do generate the noise, especially because the cantilever on your cartridge does have a resting place in the joke hole, which ensures that its not the cantilever being involved in the generating of the noise as the cantilever is rather standing still. Just when the tapping isn´t too hard of course.

If the noise is generated by tapping the coils cross gently one could go on thinking about what the exact cause of the noise is.
Had a look at the coil assy, unfortunately the iron cross is covered by the windings down to its ends, so there is no safe chance to load the iron cross vertically to free the cantilever in the borehole. The only chance is to press the ferrule attached to the center of the iron cross (where the boron cantilever is mounted in; e.g. with a piece of paper). The ferrule seems to be part of the iron cross since it is painted in the same white colour. To avoid slipping into the windings, imho the cart needs to be detached, then e.g. screwed into its original plastic package and connected to the phono preamp separately...this hassle is currently something for a later point in time...maybe someone has another idea or explanation in the meantime...

Btw. I agree with your suspicion that moving moving-coil windings are the reason for rustling (this would give the designation MC a completely new dimension...), being pressed to the rubber ring suspension and slipping around, when the rubber is loaded.
- As far as I understood, the whole iron cross with prestressing wire, the windings, the boron cantilever and the stylus is one prefabricated part from Japan...anybody having more details?
- Also, anybody aware of the same behaviour of the similar Dynavector high output carts?

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 11 Jan 2019 05:06

Judging from this picture
f -.JPG
(45.26 KiB) Downloaded 49 times
i feel like the white cross could be tapped at its end. But maybe the picture is misleading or does not resemble your cartridge.
I did not mean to lift the cantilever off the yoke hole. I meant the cantilever to stay in contact with the yoke hole to avoid the cantilever vibrating. Because if you tap the coils and lift the cantilever the noise could be generated by the cantilever vibrating, then you cannot be sure whether its the coils or the cantilever generating the noise.
If the cantilever stays in its resting position having contact to the yoke hole, you can be pretty sure that its them coils generating the sound when tapped.

But yes, to do so it would be saver to screw the cartridge into its package and then one had to connect it to the phono amp separately.

An easier and saver test would be to just tap the housing of the cartridge, hoping this will shake the coils. It wouldn´t be as precise as tapping the coils directly, but when the cantilever is in its resting position it shouldn´t move a lot when the cartridges housing is tapped. One could also try to tap the yoke hole itself and the metal assembly holding the rubber piece, just to see what effect is produced by that.
...

BTW just looking at the picture i think that this cartridge does not have a shielding to avoid electromagnetic irradiation. As far as i know Grados also lack shielding which is why the do hum when used on a DD-tt, as DDs have quite some electronics to control the DD-motor, respectively the motor does produce magnetic fields. Maybe this lack of shielding also could contribute to the noise, though i had managed to cancel the hum of my Grado on my DD-tt. Still i think my Grado did produce this rustling noise, but maybe there is a correlation as the Pickering i have on my table now does not produce a rustling noise but has shielding.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 11 Jan 2019 08:45

H. callahan wrote:
11 Jan 2019 05:06
Judging from this picture
f -.JPG

i feel like the white cross could be tapped at its end. But maybe the picture is misleading or does not resemble your cartridge.
I did not mean to lift the cantilever off the yoke hole. I meant the cantilever to stay in contact with the yoke hole to avoid the cantilever vibrating. Because if you tap the coils and lift the cantilever the noise could be generated by the cantilever vibrating, then you cannot be sure whether its the coils or the cantilever generating the noise.
If the cantilever stays in its resting position having contact to the yoke hole, you can be pretty sure that its them coils generating the sound when tapped.

But yes, to do so it would be saver to screw the cartridge into its package and then one had to connect it to the phono amp separately.

An easier and saver test would be to just tap the housing of the cartridge, hoping this will shake the coils. It wouldn´t be as precise as tapping the coils directly, but when the cantilever is in its resting position it shouldn´t move a lot when the cartridges housing is tapped. One could also try to tap the yoke hole itself and the metal assembly holding the rubber piece, just to see what effect is produced by that.
...

BTW just looking at the picture i think that this cartridge does not have a shielding to avoid electromagnetic irradiation. As far as i know Grados also lack shielding which is why the do hum when used on a DD-tt, as DDs have quite some electronics to control the DD-motor, respectively the motor does produce magnetic fields. Maybe this lack of shielding also could contribute to the noise, though i had managed to cancel the hum of my Grado on my DD-tt. Still i think my Grado did produce this rustling noise, but maybe there is a correlation as the Pickering i have on my table now does not produce a rustling noise but has shielding.
Yes, also thought about pushing just on side of the iron cross as well. The issue with this is that it might load the cantilever with unforeseeable pressure, at minimum, move it a bit around on its resting position, which would then not allow to differ between noise coming from the coils and potential noise coming from the joint between ferrule and cantilever. So my idea was to load both 2 lower ends of the iron cross and lift the cantilever, to exclude the joint as a source. Here, a flat support to push both lower ends would probably touch the coils...

And the missing shielding was a big worry to me as well, when I ordered it from France, since even my previously used Shure V-15 IV MR with electrical shielding (sheet metal cover and conducting plastic base) had some hum noise pick-up. Remembering carts I used before, this was always some kind of a problem, magnetically and electrically. But here things are different with MC, since the impedance of the coil is so low that there is almost no electrical hum or RF pick-up at all. Even at max. volume (which is app. + 12db above peak max., as adjusted in the T+A phono-preamp) the noise is much lower than before, due to the lower resistive noise than with MM. The only (but negligible) thing is some magnetic hum pick-up from the synchronous motor, when the tonearm is at the inner groove position. In magnitude, I would guess there is no difference to the Shure V-15 since the metal shield does not work well on magnetic pick-up.
I must add that I am very pleased with the electrial situation of the high-level MC cart, no electrical resonance issues, much lower phono-preamp noise, combined with a "deep diving" MR stylus cut that averages the groove sidewall irregularites (silent groove noise) in a very convincing way, subjectively better than the old Shure MR stylus did...

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 12 Jan 2019 15:55

Hm... yes, but when the cantilever is free it could vibrate again and by that one could not differ between what is producing the sound. The cantilever had to be damped to allow differing. Maybe you just could lower the stylus onto your cleaning pad and then with the cantilever damped by the pad try to tap the coils.
But as this still is tricky the best way was to buy another cartridge where the cantilever is completely broken off. Such a cartridge probably could be had for a few bucks as its no longer repairable and then one could carry out all kinds of test without the danger of damaging a working cartridge,as the cartridge allready is defect.

I never had a MC cartridge so i didn´t think of MC cartridges not being as prone to picking up hum - on the other hand the signal a MC cartridge produces is quite lower than the signal a MM does produce. So the signal has to be amplified a lot more and by that hum, picked up form the motor etc., should become louder also.
Anyway i just wanted to mention that Grados also lack shielding which might have something to do with that noise.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 16 Jan 2019 13:23

H. callahan wrote:
12 Jan 2019 15:55
Hm... yes, but when the cantilever is free it could vibrate again and by that one could not differ between what is producing the sound. The cantilever had to be damped to allow differing. Maybe you just could lower the stylus onto your cleaning pad and then with the cantilever damped by the pad try to tap the coils.
But as this still is tricky the best way was to buy another cartridge where the cantilever is completely broken off. Such a cartridge probably could be had for a few bucks as its no longer repairable and then one could carry out all kinds of test without the danger of damaging a working cartridge,as the cartridge allready is defect.

I never had a MC cartridge so i didn´t think of MC cartridges not being as prone to picking up hum - on the other hand the signal a MC cartridge produces is quite lower than the signal a MM does produce. So the signal has to be amplified a lot more and by that hum, picked up form the motor etc., should become louder also.
Anyway i just wanted to mention that Grados also lack shielding which might have something to do with that noise.
I think the freed and mechanically relieved cantilever has such a little mass that it will not create any noise, even it has a problem under load...and tapping a coil itself makes me really shiver, don´t want to lose almost 800€ in just one strike...besides looking at your pic, the situation is actually different in a normal case. To minimise the stereo channel crosstalk, the coils need to be rotated by 45°. I think the picture shows a somehow modified cart to play mono (only horizontal sensivity on one channel)...and eventually some thin wires hanging around the coils...not sure if these are jpeg artefacts...

Regarding the sensivity of MC-carts, picking up more noise than MM-carts, you are probably right in the regular case of a low output MC-cart w some hundred microvolts output voltage. Benz delivers this ACE-cart in 3 sensivities, mine, the blue one, with only some dB less output than my previous Shure V15 IV MM-cart (good for a MM-phono-preamp), a white one with a higher than normal MC-cart output level and the well known red one with normal MC level. Less output level means less windings and therefore thicker and therefore potentially a mechanically more resilient wire against pressure changes, when being moved...maybe this is also the reason why nobody else commented on this thread...

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 555
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 17 Jan 2019 06:47

The cantilever surely has very little mass but this musn´t mean it doesn´t produce any noise when vibrating. A piece of paper for example also does have little mass but can make a lot of noise...
Yes, risking 800€ for just one strike is challenging, best was to get a damaged cartridge for a few bucks and test this.