Does your cartridge rustle?

the thin end of the wedge
eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 22 Dec 2018 16:30

When cleaning my cartridge (Benz ACE-S/H - MC-cart) with headphones still on, I noticed a "rustling" noise when lowering the stylus down on the cleaning pad (DS-Audio ST-50 in this case). I was very astonished by this noise, sounding like turning over a newspaper page (rustling but not sizzling) in intensity about a record´s silent groove noise.
First I thought it has to do with the urethane cleaning pad, but it´s also there on blank vinyl, shaking the sub-chassis on my Thorens a little when the stylus is down and the platter stands still.
To evaluate the effect in more detail I dropped the stylus again on resting blank vinyl and used a stylus brush to press the cart and tonearm carefully in vertical and horizontal direction. Both result in this rustling noise during movement, which is a little stronger on the right channel. To my perception it may be hearable, playing a slightly warped record, adding to the regular surface noise.

Did anybody in the forum encounter this noise as well (Do I have a problem with the cart)???

terry-a
senior member
senior member
Posts: 884
Joined: 05 Jan 2013 04:11

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by terry-a » 22 Dec 2018 17:20

What table and arm is this on?

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 22 Dec 2018 18:03

terry-a wrote:
22 Dec 2018 17:20
What table and arm is this on?
It´s a Thorens TD146 MKVI equipped with an original TP50 tonearm (bolted headshell).

Meanwhile I did another test, whether the rustling noise may originate from the tonearm bearings. When clamping the tonearm into its rest, and very carefully touching the stylus with the urethane cleaning pad results in the same behaviour, same noise, so rather no problem here...to me it feels like the noise originates from the coil cross pressing on the rubber suspension or somewhere behind, maybe from the prestressing wire...otherwise sound and tracking are OK.

some pics here:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 19#p908219

Btw., checked for fibres, hairs or other dirt - nothing visible

terry-a
senior member
senior member
Posts: 884
Joined: 05 Jan 2013 04:11

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by terry-a » 22 Dec 2018 20:21

eliash wrote:
22 Dec 2018 18:03
terry-a wrote:
22 Dec 2018 17:20
What table and arm is this on?
It´s a Thorens TD146 MKVI equipped with an original TP50 tonearm (bolted headshell).

Meanwhile I did another test, whether the rustling noise may originate from the tonearm bearings. When clamping the tonearm into its rest, and very carefully touching the stylus with the urethane cleaning pad results in the same behaviour, same noise, so rather no problem here...to me it feels like the noise originates from the coil cross pressing on the rubber suspension or somewhere behind, maybe from the prestressing wire...otherwise sound and tracking are OK.

some pics here:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 19#p908219

Btw., checked for fibres, hairs or other dirt - nothing visible

Hm. Only when you touch the stylus, not when you touch the headshell.

smee4
senior member
senior member
Posts: 951
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 08:07

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by smee4 » 23 Dec 2018 04:44

Hard to say, but it sounds like it's just the noise being picked up from the friction between the stylus tip and whatever you are putting it in contact with.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 23 Dec 2018 08:02

smee4 wrote:
23 Dec 2018 04:44
Hard to say, but it sounds like it's just the noise being picked up from the friction between the stylus tip and whatever you are putting it in contact with.
It´s rather unlikely that the noise comes from stylus-friction, since the stylus sinks in, into the urethane cleaning pad and that grabs it firmly. On top there is of course the usual low frequency output from the stylus movement, when the stylus and cantilever are loaded to normal VTF.

smee4
senior member
senior member
Posts: 951
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 08:07

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by smee4 » 23 Dec 2018 08:31

eliash wrote:
23 Dec 2018 08:02
smee4 wrote:
23 Dec 2018 04:44
Hard to say, but it sounds like it's just the noise being picked up from the friction between the stylus tip and whatever you are putting it in contact with.
It´s rather unlikely that the noise comes from stylus-friction, since the stylus sinks in, into the urethane cleaning pad and that grabs it firmly. On top there is of course the usual low frequency output from the stylus movement, when the stylus and cantilever are loaded to normal VTF.
I use magic eraser foam, and I can hear my stylus come into contact with that.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 23 Dec 2018 08:44

smee4 wrote:
23 Dec 2018 08:31
eliash wrote:
23 Dec 2018 08:02
smee4 wrote:
23 Dec 2018 04:44
Hard to say, but it sounds like it's just the noise being picked up from the friction between the stylus tip and whatever you are putting it in contact with.
It´s rather unlikely that the noise comes from stylus-friction, since the stylus sinks in, into the urethane cleaning pad and that grabs it firmly. On top there is of course the usual low frequency output from the stylus movement, when the stylus and cantilever are loaded to normal VTF.
I use magic eraser foam, and I can hear my stylus come into contact with that.
I use a similar stuff like magic eraser (=melamin-resin foam) as well, here I wouldn´t have heard this rustle noise either, since this really generates loud friction noise between the stylus and the foam...

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 588
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 23 Dec 2018 16:05

I think i once had a similar problem with a Grado. It made a strange noise when the cartridge tracked a warped record, so i lowered the stylus onto the record without the platter turning and tapped onto the record surface near the stylus. The cartridge then made a sound simliar to a horse snorting (in german: wie das Schnauben eines Pferdes), but thinking about rustling paper i´d say this sound also could be described like that.
I then did modify the Grado but i cannot recall whether this snorting did disappear or not. But back then i also concluded the coils being involved, i think i assumed it to be ringing of the coils due to the cartridge vibrating. Now as a Grado is a MI this effect may not be dependend on the construction principle of the cartridge, as yours is a MC.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 23 Dec 2018 17:45

H. callahan wrote:
23 Dec 2018 16:05
I think i once had a similar problem with a Grado. It made a strange noise when the cartridge tracked a warped record, so i lowered the stylus onto the record without the platter turning and tapped onto the record surface near the stylus. The cartridge then made a sound simliar to a horse snorting (in german: wie das Schnauben eines Pferdes), but thinking about rustling paper i´d say this sound also could be described like that.
I then did modify the Grado but i cannot recall whether this snorting did disappear or not. But back then i also concluded the coils being involved, i think i assumed it to be ringing of the coils due to the cartridge vibrating. Now as a Grado is a MI this effect may not be dependend on the construction principle of the cartridge, as yours is a MC.
Thanks, this could be a valuable hint, i.e. excluding deforming coils, when the cantilever is moved, since the moving iron has fixed coils...MI and MC still have a rubber suspension and sometimes the prestressing wire in common...so eventually noise coming from the suspension...maybe loose and moving in the fixture???
I like this comparison with a snorting horse, it´s not exactly that bad (yet), but could go in this direction, should it become worse...

Btw., it´s not temperature dependent, at least in a normal range from 19 to 27°C.

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 588
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 25 Dec 2018 09:32

As far as i recall i had removed the black stuff which is put between the coils of all Grados, so the coils of mine were completely undamped - as they usually are with MCs. I also listened with headphones but i think the noise was a little louder than a silent groove - but this may be due to the Grado having bigger coils than a MC and if its them coils ringing it could be dependend on the size of the coils.
If its not temperature dependent it could be a hint that its not the rubber suspension, but the question also is how much the damping characteristics of rubber does change between 19-27°.

I have just tested a Pickering XV 15 (also an MI) and it does not produce such a sound when the stylus is lowered on a non-revolving record and i tap the record.
But a Pickering has a different stylus-suspension than a Grado. On a Grado the cantilever is melted into the piece of plastic you have to take off when changing the stylus. On a Pickering the cantilever is put throug a piece of rubber which is put into a small tube - this means vibrations of the cantilever cannot go as easy onto the cartridges housing with a Pickering as they can on a Grado.
Now on a MC the coils are directly attached onto the cantilever making it very easy to get the coils ringing; this could be an explanation for having the same sound with a MC, an undamped Grado but not a Pickering.

Now i have read somewhere that the ringing of the coils of a Grado can be reduced by putting a drop of silicone oil onto the coils of a Grado.
Depending on how accessible the coils of your Benz are and how much risc you want to take, you could try to put a very small drop of silicone oil onto the coils - as the coils of your Benz are way smaller than the coils of a Grado.
This could reduce the ringing of the coils but this also could intefere with the performance of the cartridge as it would increase moving mass and even could result in too much damping as the coils on a MC are needed to move/vibrate to produce sound.
So before one does try this one should think of how to remove the oil in case it does interfere with performance.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 25 Dec 2018 17:10

H. callahan wrote:
25 Dec 2018 09:32
As far as i recall i had removed the black stuff which is put between the coils of all Grados, so the coils of mine were completely undamped - as they usually are with MCs. I also listened with headphones but i think the noise was a little louder than a silent groove - but this may be due to the Grado having bigger coils than a MC and if its them coils ringing it could be dependend on the size of the coils.
If its not temperature dependent it could be a hint that its not the rubber suspension, but the question also is how much the damping characteristics of rubber does change between 19-27°.

I have just tested a Pickering XV 15 (also an MI) and it does not produce such a sound when the stylus is lowered on a non-revolving record and i tap the record.
But a Pickering has a different stylus-suspension than a Grado. On a Grado the cantilever is melted into the piece of plastic you have to take off when changing the stylus. On a Pickering the cantilever is put throug a piece of rubber which is put into a small tube - this means vibrations of the cantilever cannot go as easy onto the cartridges housing with a Pickering as they can on a Grado.
Now on a MC the coils are directly attached onto the cantilever making it very easy to get the coils ringing; this could be an explanation for having the same sound with a MC, an undamped Grado but not a Pickering.

Now i have read somewhere that the ringing of the coils of a Grado can be reduced by putting a drop of silicone oil onto the coils of a Grado.
Depending on how accessible the coils of your Benz are and how much risc you want to take, you could try to put a very small drop of silicone oil onto the coils - as the coils of your Benz are way smaller than the coils of a Grado.
This could reduce the ringing of the coils but this also could intefere with the performance of the cartridge as it would increase moving mass and even could result in too much damping as the coils on a MC are needed to move/vibrate to produce sound.
So before one does try this one should think of how to remove the oil in case it does interfere with performance.
At first a Merry Christmas to all of you, writing and reading here!

Again, big Thanks for the detailed information. Trying to remember all the other carts I had so far, I do not recall any other noise, than the bump noise when the needle touches the record or leaves it. But it is interesting that there are other carts on the market than my Benz doing similar things...
Further examining the suspension and looking at other possible reasons, I also checked electrostatic build-up, since the metal body is isolated from the tonearm ground in my case and the coils. Astonishingly both mounting screws do not have electrical contact to each other, neither to the tonearm ground nor to the body of the cart. Even though measuring from one srcews head´s end to the opposite show contact, so my headshell´s paint is isolating towards the screws and to the metal flange of the cart and the metal flange´s threads are isolating towards the srcews.
So I contacted the side of the cart´s accessible body with a plated iron alligator clip (jumped directly on the cart´s body because of the strong magnet) and grounded the attached wire, but no effect on the noise. Doing so, I used a high volume setting on my headphone and there was another strange thing. Until now I heard the noise only when the cantilever had some load and was not touching the yoke hole edge in the idle state. But one can hear some fading noise also when the cantilever already touches the yoke hole and sits still. I remember having heard this noise before, after the stylus has left the groove when lifted. I thought it was electrostatical build-up between the record and the cart, but now I am sure that it was this noise.

Until now I am not sure enough to put antifriction agent on the coils or the suspension...anybody any other ideas so far?

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 588
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by H. callahan » 27 Dec 2018 16:43

You´re welcome.
During playback i have found static discharge just to sound like a dustlick. What does the "new" fading sound exactly sound like?
Apart from that i´d try to tap the coils of the Benz. Only very carefully and only if possible etc., but this might give another hint from where these sounds are comming from.

Boltman92124
senior member
senior member
Posts: 780
Joined: 23 Jan 2016 00:18
Location: San Diego

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by Boltman92124 » 27 Dec 2018 17:09

Using a pair of Electrostatic headphones (Stax), it is really quite obvious how much extra noise is in those grooves/LP surface.

eliash
member
member
Germany
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Aug 2016 14:45
Location: Bavaria, near lake Ammersee

Re: Does your cartridge rustle?

Post by eliash » 27 Dec 2018 20:12

H. callahan wrote:
27 Dec 2018 16:43
You´re welcome.
During playback i have found static discharge just to sound like a dustlick. What does the "new" fading sound exactly sound like?
Apart from that i´d try to tap the coils of the Benz. Only very carefully and only if possible etc., but this might give another hint from where these sounds are comming from.
Regarding the fading noise, it can be best described as a rustling noise breaking up into less and less individual clicks while fading. I was attempted to exclude electrostatic build-up on the isolating parts (basically the suspension rubber) by applying a bit of antistatic agent directly (which collects conducting humidity from the ambient air, which then extinguishes any charge)...maybe after new year´s day.
The whole thing reminds me somehow of a worn out car suspension, even though sounding different...

P.S. That´s exactly the curse of using a Stax L700 for vinyl listening, you might get hooked onto all sorts of vinyl noise never heard before, better reserve that for HD digital-audio...

Post Reply