Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

the thin end of the wedge
stephanschmitt
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Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by stephanschmitt » 24 Nov 2018 22:14

I searched the forum but could not find an answer to my problem so here I go:

I recently purchased a Goldring Eroica MC cartridge and installed it on my Dynavector DV 507. After final adjustment I checked my setup with the Ortofon test record "The Tests" which - among others - features a Tracking Ability Test. To my surprise I was only able to get to 60 micrometers (max is 80) without distortion. I use a second arm/cartridge setup on my turntable (SME 3009/2 with Denon DL103) which performs flawless up to 80 micrometer. So it is clearly a tonearm/cartridge issue. I adjusted tracking force from the recommended 1.8 to up to 3 without any improvement. I also varied and disabled anti-skating without improvement. I also changed the VTA without any positive impact.
Any suggestion?

patient_ot
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by patient_ot » 25 Nov 2018 06:27

Have you tried any music records with the cartridge? I have not tried the Eroica, but IME with their MM 1042 cartridge, the break in time to loosen up the suspension was quite long. Setup of the Gyger stylus is also extremely finicky. I've been trying it off and on with a rotation of other cartridges and I'm pondering giving up and selling it. Other cartridges I have used track better on challenging records and are less finicky to set up.

You can try contacting Goldring and see what they say. Hopefully they have better advice than the standard "did you align the cartridge?"

stephanschmitt
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by stephanschmitt » 25 Nov 2018 15:00

Thanks, yes I did try with music and although the difference is subtle I have the feeling, that "sss" sounds are harsher on the Goldring. I also - and that started it - have the impression that the stage is "fuzzy" where I can not pinpoint an instrument to a specific location (voice, however, ist mostly centered). The entire system is in phase, I checked that with a signal generator and a scope. I think it may also be - at least in part - an issue with the recoerdings!?
Meanwhile I tried a second (other source) test record that spans from 30 to 100 and up to 80 it is quite good/acceptable. However, at 90 and 100 the stylus skips the groove, no matter (within reason) what tracking force I apply.
So you think it's the Gyger stylus?

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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by Pauw » 25 Nov 2018 15:48

Back in the day when MCs became a fashionable item in Hi-Fi the reviews often spoke of the great sound that you could obtain with an MC...BUT also often mentioned was their poorer tracking ability compared to an MM. This was not an isolated incident ....in fact it became accepted that if you were going to run an MC one of the trade offs would be poorer tracking ability to say cartridges like a Shure V15 etc......explanations were given in terms of the physics of mounting coils onto a cantilever with a magnet above it ....time has moved on but in 2018 I think that the improvements that time can bring have reached their limit and the Physics will have npt changed......as a resuly MCs will track well BUT not up to the extremes an MM can....and the MC sound .....well MM and MC ....it's not always a clear case that one is better than the other! :D

stephanschmitt
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by stephanschmitt » 25 Nov 2018 16:27

Pauw, thanks and I agree based on my experience! I guess I am content with the sound level I achieved due to my tweaks and just enjoy the music. I will keep an eye on that issue, though, and will probably contact Goldring anyway.
Thank you for that suggestion

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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by BMRR » 25 Nov 2018 17:00

Pauw wrote:
25 Nov 2018 15:48
Back in the day when MCs became a fashionable item in Hi-Fi the reviews often spoke of the great sound that you could obtain with an MC...BUT also often mentioned was their poorer tracking ability compared to an MM. This was not an isolated incident ....in fact it became accepted that if you were going to run an MC one of the trade offs would be poorer tracking ability to say cartridges like a Shure V15 etc......explanations were given in terms of the physics of mounting coils onto a cantilever with a magnet above it ....time has moved on but in 2018 I think that the improvements that time can bring have reached their limit and the Physics will have npt changed......as a resuly MCs will track well BUT not up to the extremes an MM can....and the MC sound .....well MM and MC ....it's not always a clear case that one is better than the other! :D
But the DL103 is a very old design from the early 1960s; one must wonder why his DL103 tracks better than his Goldring whose design is several decades newer!

From my own personal experience, my DL103 tracks better than many of my MM carts, including my V15 III-HE.

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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by patient_ot » 25 Nov 2018 18:41

stephanschmitt wrote:
25 Nov 2018 15:00
Thanks, yes I did try with music and although the difference is subtle I have the feeling, that "sss" sounds are harsher on the Goldring. I also - and that started it - have the impression that the stage is "fuzzy" where I can not pinpoint an instrument to a specific location (voice, however, ist mostly centered). The entire system is in phase, I checked that with a signal generator and a scope. I think it may also be - at least in part - an issue with the recoerdings!?
Meanwhile I tried a second (other source) test record that spans from 30 to 100 and up to 80 it is quite good/acceptable. However, at 90 and 100 the stylus skips the groove, no matter (within reason) what tracking force I apply.
So you think it's the Gyger stylus?
I think it's the stylus. I get the same thing on mine (exaggerated sibilants). The Gyger profiles are very extreme and seem to be more difficult to get dialed in 100% vs. something like a Shibata or a even a microline/microridge. Why that is, I don't know. The fuzz you're hearing is probably distortion from the stylus not maintaining contact with the groove wall. If you do write Goldring, let me know what they say. I'm curious. I just sent an email with a last ditch attempt asking for troubleshooting on their end. If they have nothing to offer me I will probably sell my Goldring and move on. I have other carts and just don't have the patience or sophisticated setup tools that others do. I also think the Goldring is a poor match for my phono stage and don't feel like buying a new one right now.

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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by patient_ot » 25 Nov 2018 18:42

BMRR wrote:
25 Nov 2018 17:00
Pauw wrote:
25 Nov 2018 15:48
Back in the day when MCs became a fashionable item in Hi-Fi the reviews often spoke of the great sound that you could obtain with an MC...BUT also often mentioned was their poorer tracking ability compared to an MM. This was not an isolated incident ....in fact it became accepted that if you were going to run an MC one of the trade offs would be poorer tracking ability to say cartridges like a Shure V15 etc......explanations were given in terms of the physics of mounting coils onto a cantilever with a magnet above it ....time has moved on but in 2018 I think that the improvements that time can bring have reached their limit and the Physics will have npt changed......as a resuly MCs will track well BUT not up to the extremes an MM can....and the MC sound .....well MM and MC ....it's not always a clear case that one is better than the other! :D
But the DL103 is a very old design from the early 1960s; one must wonder why his DL103 tracks better than his Goldring whose design is several decades newer!

From my own personal experience, my DL103 tracks better than many of my MM carts, including my V15 III-HE.
Yes, I'd like to know what Goldring has to say about that as well.

I wonder if it's the high tracking force of the DL103 that makes it track so well.

BMRR
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by BMRR » 25 Nov 2018 18:51

I think the high tracking force is a piece of the puzzle but definitely not the whole picture. My DL103 at 2.5g runs circles around my M44-7 at 3g. And my AT440MLb at 1.6g easily trounces both of them. But I would fully expect the $800 Goldring Eroica to beat the DL-103, too. If its tracking ability tops out at 60 µm, that's just pitiful. The $33 Ortofon Omega's tracking ability is 65 µm!

stephanschmitt
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by stephanschmitt » 25 Nov 2018 19:38

OK, I just contacted Goldring. I will keep you posted.

patient_ot
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by patient_ot » 25 Nov 2018 21:14

BMRR wrote:
25 Nov 2018 18:51
I think the high tracking force is a piece of the puzzle but definitely not the whole picture. My DL103 at 2.5g runs circles around my M44-7 at 3g. And my AT440MLb at 1.6g easily trounces both of them. But I would fully expect the $800 Goldring Eroica to beat the DL-103, too. If its tracking ability tops out at 60 µm, that's just pitiful. The $33 Ortofon Omega's tracking ability is 65 µm!
Those AT microlines will track almost anything IME, even those most hotly cut records and crammed inner grooves. Where they have trouble is certain types of damaged records or bad pressings, where you get a curl of material that hangs over another groove like a wave. In those cases my heavier tracking cartridges tend to perform a little better and don't get "hung up".

patient_ot
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by patient_ot » 25 Nov 2018 21:15

stephanschmitt wrote:
25 Nov 2018 19:38
OK, I just contacted Goldring. I will keep you posted.
Please do. I sent my email yesterday, hopefully we get a response tomorrow or the next day.

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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by Boltman92124 » 26 Nov 2018 18:31

As a side note, has anybody compared the Ortofon Test LP to the Hi Fi News Test LP? I was thinking about buying one of them at Needle Doctor.

Thanks!

patient_ot
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by patient_ot » 27 Nov 2018 04:50

Boltman92124 wrote:
26 Nov 2018 18:31
As a side note, has anybody compared the Ortofon Test LP to the Hi Fi News Test LP? I was thinking about buying one of them at Needle Doctor.

Thanks!
Not me. I purposely did not buy the HF TR because there are too many reports of copies being warped and off-center. I bought a clean copy of the old CBS STR 100 instead.

Boltman92124
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Re: Problem with tracking ability Goldring Eroica MC

Post by Boltman92124 » 27 Nov 2018 17:55

patient_ot wrote:
27 Nov 2018 04:50
Boltman92124 wrote:
26 Nov 2018 18:31
As a side note, has anybody compared the Ortofon Test LP to the Hi Fi News Test LP? I was thinking about buying one of them at Needle Doctor.

Thanks!
Not me. I purposely did not buy the HF TR because there are too many reports of copies being warped and off-center. I bought a clean copy of the old CBS STR 100 instead.
The write up for the HF TR says it's a new higher quality pressing. Good info though. Think I'll try out the Ortofon.

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