Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

the thin end of the wedge
Post Reply
DeepEnd
long player
long player
Great Britain
Posts: 1239
Joined: 19 Dec 2014 10:21
Location: Lancashire

Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by DeepEnd » 17 Oct 2018 15:20

I have managed to collect a number of Nagaoka styli (and a few bodies) and was recording a track with various types in a single body. The problem is most of them don't seem to have a sensible correlation on compliance to the product specifications (specs indicate low - medium [7.2-10 @ 100Hz est 15-20 @ 10Hz] tests show on the newer types as quite high compliance 20-26) :-

These are in a Rega RB300 (eff mass 11.5g?) with MP-11 Boron body/fasteners at 8.0g, Output typical is compared to MP110 level (assumed 5.0mV)

Stylus, . . . . . . VTF, spec O/P, O/P typical, Compliance Dyn, Static, resonance, Est Compl, Tip size, Cantilever

MP110, . . . . . . . . . . . 1.5-2.0g, 5.0mV#3, 5.0mV, 8, 18 , 7.2Hz, 26, 0.4 x 0.7 Bond., Alum.
MP11 Boron, . . . . . . . 1.8-2.3, 4.0mV, 4.9mV, 8, 20, 9.6Hz, 15, 0.4 x 0.7 ULM, Boron
MP11 Boron/Paratrace, 1.7-1.9#1, 4.0mV#2, 5.1mV, 8, 20, 8.0Hz, 20, Para, ULM, Boron
MP200, . . . .. . . . . . . . 1.5-2.0g, 4.0mV#3, 4.7mV, 7.2, 20, 7.5Hz, 25, 0.4 x 0.7 ULM, Boron
MP30, . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.3-1.8g, 3.0mV#3, 2.9mV, 10, 22, 8.0Hz, 20, 0.4 x 0.7 ULM, Boron
Notes:-
“ULM” Ultra Low Mass nude type (surface mounted on solid Boron cantilever)
#1 as tested by ESCo after re-tipping
#2 assumed same as MP-11Boron
#3 in matching MP110/MP200/MP30 body

Has anyone else measured/estimated the compliance of their Nagoaka's?

chiz
senior member
senior member
Great Britain
Posts: 892
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 23:05
Location: London

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by chiz » 17 Oct 2018 20:34

I don't have any Nagaokas myself but I did do some testing of compliance specs and estimates for some other brands against my own measurements, details here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95&start=5

dahoo
senior member
senior member
China
Posts: 254
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 05:02
Location: Santa Clara, CA

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by dahoo » 17 Oct 2018 21:39

i would say i feel my mp150 is mid compliance. at120e tracks better on warped records than mp150 on technics 1200. but in theory, isn't mp150 supposed to be a better match for mid mass tone arm like technics 1200?

DeepEnd
long player
long player
Great Britain
Posts: 1239
Joined: 19 Dec 2014 10:21
Location: Lancashire

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by DeepEnd » 04 Nov 2018 17:29

Well just to double check I refitted my A&R P77 which is supposed to have a compliance of 20 at 10Hz. Assuming my heavier counter weight (120g vs 100g) reduces the effective mass sightly from 11.5g down to 11.0g then:-

A&R P77 resonance is about 8.5 Hz which suggests a compliance of about 19-20 (20 specified) so this all seams to give the correct results then it would appear that the

MP110 stylus @ 7.2 Hz would have a compliance around 26 (8 @ 100Hz specified)
MP11 Boron @ 9.6 Hz would have a compliance around 14-15 (8 @ 100Hz specified)
MP11B/Paratrace @ 8.0 Hz would have a compliance around 21 (8 @ 100Hz specified)
MP200 stylus @ 7.5 Hz would have a compliance around 23-24 (7.2 @ 100Hz specified)
MP30 stylus @ 8.0 Hz would have a compliance around 21 (10 @ 100Hz specified)

From this it appears that the older MP/two digit styli are closer to expectation at approx 2x times the 100Hz figure but the newer MP/three digit styli are significantly higher than expected.

rlwings
junior member
junior member
Canada
Posts: 22
Joined: 16 Jun 2018 17:54
Location: Toronto

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by rlwings » 25 Aug 2019 10:40

This post was originally posted in another thread (But slightly edited for easier reading)...

Ok, mission accomplished! I measured the resonance frequency coming from the new Technics 1200GR and the Nagaoka MP-200 cart using two different heashells. The heavier Jelco HS-25, and the lighter stock Technics.

Process:

Recorded 2 minutes of bass heavy music in Audacity on a Windows computer then viewed the 'plot spectrum' chart.

Results:

Using the heaver Jelco HS-25 headshell the resonance was in the low 6hz range. (Not great).
Using the lighter Technics stock headshell the resonance was in the high 7hz range. (Better, and almost in the green by a hair).

Conclusion:

Since I quickly realized that I needed to loose weight I swapped the heavier Jelco headshell with the lighter Technics stock headshell. I also swapped the nuts and bolts as well as the wires to lighter versions of themselves in order to achieve the 'near green zone' on the resonance chart.

It would appear that the Nagaoka MP-200 and the new Technics arm works best with light headshells and still barely makes it into the green zone. Acceptable but not ideal.

Hope my efforts help somebody who can't wait to switch their headshell (like me) to a higher quality but heavier headshell. With the Nagaoka MP-200 cart... it may not be the best idea... I compromised and used the better (and lighter) wires that came with the Jelco headshell with the stock Technics headshell to achieve a possible sonic improvement.

goatbreath
long player
long player
Scotland
Posts: 2527
Joined: 17 Mar 2010 16:54
Location: Edinbugger

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by goatbreath » 25 Aug 2019 14:21

The old SME way was to add The Dynamic and Static compliance together then divide by two..

I remember looking up the AT 95 E
6.5 CU Dynamic + 20 CU Static = 26.5 divided by 2 = 13.25 CU That actually seems about right for the AT 95 E..

I'm not saying it always works though. Static and Dynamic are different things.

As was said in the other thread 14 CU or 15 CU for the Denon DL110..
Although this cartridge sings best with 15 grams or more mass going on I reckon..
The difference between that and the bass light Denon with less mass is quite marked..

I always thought the 1.5 to 3 gram tracking Shures were lower than 20 CU too..

I have a Nagaoka MP 110 too and it seems to be really arm/Turntable Fussy..
It can sound like different parts of the frequency spectrum are detached rather than constant on some tables..
I bought it with the headshell too..

A sticky with findings and civilised debate involving experience would be so handy for others here..

I think the original Shure ED Styli were a bit higher than 25 CU too..not by much maybe 28 CU.
The 1.5 to 3 Gram tacking styli about half that..

The replacements of course have different suspensions,so different compliance..

If the manufacturers were honest in the first place,I think Ortofon Blue Styli are quite a bit above 20 CU..
I think some manufacturers quote what people want to hear because of what is fashionable at the time..
What will suit a Rega and Technics arm etc..
Ortofon who I am having less love for is quoting 1000 hours and above for elliptical stylus life..

goatbreath
long player
long player
Scotland
Posts: 2527
Joined: 17 Mar 2010 16:54
Location: Edinbugger

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by goatbreath » 25 Aug 2019 18:11

chiz wrote:
17 Oct 2018 20:34
I don't have any Nagaokas myself but I did do some testing of compliance specs and estimates for some other brands against my own measurements, details here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95&start=5
Sorry I was really tired when I posted,my post above was more aimed at you.. lol ...

I messed some other stuff up too...Small snooze has been had,so I can now hopefully rectify the damage.. lol

I know my way is much more basic,but that is how I was told to do it with an Extra piece of paper with the SME 3 S arm.. :)

chiz
senior member
senior member
Great Britain
Posts: 892
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 23:05
Location: London

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by chiz » 26 Aug 2019 11:55

goatbreath wrote:
25 Aug 2019 18:11
chiz wrote:
17 Oct 2018 20:34
I don't have any Nagaokas myself but I did do some testing of compliance specs and estimates for some other brands against my own measurements, details here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95&start=5
Sorry I was really tired when I posted,my post above was more aimed at you.. lol ...
From measured peak resonance I calculated:

17.2cu for the AT95E
16.7cu for the DL-110
13.9cu for the M35X

The figures published by Shure are static values I believe:

https://www.shure.com/en-GB/support/fin ... definition

goatbreath
long player
long player
Scotland
Posts: 2527
Joined: 17 Mar 2010 16:54
Location: Edinbugger

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by goatbreath » 26 Aug 2019 14:29

chiz wrote:
26 Aug 2019 11:55
goatbreath wrote:
25 Aug 2019 18:11
chiz wrote:
17 Oct 2018 20:34
I don't have any Nagaokas myself but I did do some testing of compliance specs and estimates for some other brands against my own measurements, details here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95&start=5
Sorry I was really tired when I posted,my post above was more aimed at you.. lol ...
From measured peak resonance I calculated:

17.2cu for the AT95E
16.7cu for the DL-110
13.9cu for the M35X

The figures published by Shure are static values I believe:

https://www.shure.com/en-GB/support/fin ... definition
Wow,,Shocked the AT95 E came out that high..
There must be more to it than just the compliance and resonance frequency.. :D

chiz
senior member
senior member
Great Britain
Posts: 892
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 23:05
Location: London

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by chiz » 26 Aug 2019 18:58

goatbreath wrote:
26 Aug 2019 14:29
Wow,,Shocked the AT95 E came out that high..
I'm not claiming my figures are absolutely accurate but either way the AT95E and DL-110 do appear to measure similarly based on the examples I tested.

DeepEnd
long player
long player
Great Britain
Posts: 1239
Joined: 19 Dec 2014 10:21
Location: Lancashire

Re: Just what is the compliance of Nagaoka cartridges?

Post by DeepEnd » 26 Sep 2019 19:29

So having changed to an Audiomods Series 5 I quickly checked the resonance figures (manual says effective mass of bare arm is 9g to 11g) and weighing all the bits with my Nagaoka MP11B set as baerwald then the effective mass of the arm calculates out at 9.6g and by weighing the armtube rather than calculating works out at 9.5g.

Measuring the resonance point (~7.5Hz) this gives a compliance of 25-26 rather than the 20 calculated in the RB300 arm!! Given the spec says 8 at 100Hz this is very different to the expectation (12-16).

Definitely not recommended for heavier arms.

Post Reply