Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

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wojo58
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Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by wojo58 » 24 Sep 2018 16:08

I would think not, but I have found certain cartridges react differently than others on test record tracks. Maybe there's something wrong with the cantilever(twisted)? Does diamond shape matter? I would be very interested in this groups experiences on this matter.

chiz
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by chiz » 24 Sep 2018 16:34

wojo58 wrote:Does diamond shape matter?
According to this article yes it does. Some good reading on the subject here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/ve_download ... kating.pdf

78Shellac
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by 78Shellac » 25 Sep 2018 01:04

It varies by tracking force and stylus shape.

lenjack
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by lenjack » 25 Sep 2018 02:01

78Shellac wrote:It varies by tracking force and stylus shape.
That sounds about right.

tlscapital
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by tlscapital » 26 Sep 2018 12:45

So many things come into that very complex equation and approximative "correction" like the cartridge effective mass and it's dynamic compliance as well.

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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by wojo58 » 26 Sep 2018 20:50

So I have only been adjusting VTF as I bounce between cartridges. Sounds like I should run each cartridge through a test suite on my HI-FI News test record and note the best AS setting along with the recommended/best VTF. I thought AS was a characteristic of the TT/tonearm independent of the cart. Silly rabbit :-k ....

Thanks.

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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by 78Shellac » 28 Sep 2018 14:36

wojo58 wrote:So I have only been adjusting VTF as I bounce between cartridges. Sounds like I should run each cartridge through a test suite on my HI-FI News test record and note the best AS setting along with the recommended/best VTF. I thought AS was a characteristic of the TT/tonearm independent of the cart. Silly rabbit :-k ....

Thanks.
The official VPI position from Harry Weisfeld has historically been that skating force correction is not necessary.
As tonearm length increases, skating force decreases. As a consequence, a linear tracking arm needs no skating correction at all. HW lives in a world where 12” tonearms are normal, and where 14” and 16” tonearms are not unheard of. Recently he observed that he’d finally been convinced that 10” tonearms probably need it.

So VPI provide a gravity driven antiskate device that, on the bright side is essentially infinitely adjustable, but which is totally without any scale to correlate adjustment with antiskate applied.

You need then to go to a website like Soundsmith’s to figure out how to set it up.

Soundsmith advises that, when you drop the needle in the dead space around the leadout groove, the arm should advance slowly toward the center until it is picked up by the groove and driven there.

This sounds harder to do than it is. Many people believe that this is better than using test records which tend to lead you to setting antiskate at a level appropriate for extreme conditions. Soundsmith claims his opinion is based on retipping countless diamonds worn asymmetrically due to excessive antiskate.

FWIW, on my Ekos SE, which has a delightfully simple antiskate adjustment, I set it just a bit higher than VTF, and the Lyra Kleos behaves as Soundsmith says it should, ie, when dropped into the dead space the arm moves slowly toward the center until the stylus drops into the leadout groove.

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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by nat » 29 Sep 2018 16:24

I wonder if factors like slight misalignment of the cartridge might also factor in - antiskating does seem to skew the cantilever slightly (or with really high compliance cartridges, pretty grossly), and there might be an interaction between the two errors that could be audible, either in a pleasing way, or not.

78Shellac
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by 78Shellac » 30 Sep 2018 00:54

nat wrote:I wonder if factors like slight misalignment of the cartridge might also factor in - antiskating does seem to skew the cantilever slightly (or with really high compliance cartridges, pretty grossly), and there might be an interaction between the two errors that could be audible, either in a pleasing way, or not.
Lyra’s Recommendation is to adjust antiskate until the skewed cantilever is no longer skewed. Literally. They say “look at it.”

Skewing the cantilever is really undesirable. It loads the suspension in a way for which it was not designed.

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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by smee4 » 30 Sep 2018 01:08

78Shellac wrote:
Lyra’s Recommendation is to adjust antiskate until the skewed cantilever is no longer skewed. Literally. They say “look at it.”

Skewing the cantilever is really undesirable. It loads the suspension in a way for which it was not designed.

Whichever method you use, you should then tweak it by ear if you hear slight mistracking in one channel only.

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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by Gelid » 30 Sep 2018 02:16

smee4 wrote:
78Shellac wrote:
Lyra’s Recommendation is to adjust antiskate until the skewed cantilever is no longer skewed. Literally. They say “look at it.”

Skewing the cantilever is really undesirable. It loads the suspension in a way for which it was not designed.

Whichever method you use, you should then tweak it by ear if you hear slight mistracking in one channel only.
I could never hear any difference except for the extremes. One ear is worse than the other, anyway. So I now visually set antiskate by "looking at it".

78Shellac
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by 78Shellac » 04 Oct 2018 14:18

Mistracking is annoying and clearly audible even to casual observers. It sounds like the stylus is losing proper contact, sometimes in one channel, sometimes, but less often, in both.

Before you get to mistracking, you can begin to hear signs of distress in one channel. This is the affect of unequal bias force. The image may not be focused or clear. Spectral balance may be off. Some people are not as sensitive to this as others. Some systems are less capable of revealing it than others.

There are three reasons to get anti-skating right.

1. It’s better for the cartridge suspension and promotes even wear on the stylus.

2. Mistracking is hard on vinyl and can permanently degrade records.

3. Different levels of misadjustments are annoying at different levels to different listeners. Everyone likes it better if it’s spot on.

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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by tlscapital » 04 Oct 2018 14:34

78Shellac wrote:Mistracking is annoying and clearly audible even to casual observers. It sounds like the stylus is losing proper contact, sometimes in one channel, sometimes, but less often, in both.

Before you get to mistracking, you can begin to hear signs of distress in one channel. This is the affect of unequal bias force. The image may not be focused or clear. Spectral balance may be off. Some people are not as sensitive to this as others. Some systems are less capable of revealing it than others.

There are three reasons to get anti-skating right.

1. It’s better for the cartridge suspension and promotes even wear on the stylus.

2. Mistracking is hard on vinyl and can permanently degrade records.

3. Different levels of misadjustments are annoying at different levels to different listeners. Everyone likes it better if it’s spot on.
Exactly, and not to sound fussy or pretentious, it was not so much of an issue/matter for me before my DIY tweaks that challenged the ergonomic of my tonearm and gained bit by bit better clarity, dynamic and depth in sound (now 2-D MONO) where the anti-skating became a need to understand in order to tweak and set right !

Now my playback time are not only a "party" but a "pleasure" as well. How it should I always believed but only lately achieved... Because; it does take time to compare/educate the "phono" ear, it requires money to purchase the right gear and some better understanding of all the gears out there that suits one's needs best.

78Shellac
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Re: Should Anti-skate vary by Cartridge?

Post by 78Shellac » 04 Oct 2018 15:13

+1

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