The best cartridge money's no object

the thin end of the wedge
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balky
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by balky » 17 Jul 2018 10:50

Wimbo wrote:Could better be sorry for yourself... :D
If information in your signature is truly correct about your gear, the true audiophile will laugh his heart out, especially at your 12 inch modified car sub-woofer...
Wimbo wrote:Ohh, I'm not an Audiophile,what shall I do?
Maybe I don't believe in Snake oil, or maybe I do.
I displayed it and don't give a phuck what you feel is useful for your reply.
If you're not an audiophile and cannot explicitly come out with your opinion on snake oil, I would say you're better off lurking somewhere behind the scenes instead of asking for trouble with condescending remarks...

We have people around here with multiple mega-buck carts who are maturely trying to make us realize what we might not know, keeping history and technology evolution in mind and not a grain of insult coming from any of their posts...

You need to learn... really... :D

mamakasou
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by mamakasou » 17 Jul 2018 11:25

Wimbo wrote: Go back to the beginning and see what the post is.Maybe start another thread so people can take advantage of your offer.
Thank you for your suggestion.
But, I'll have to ignore it.

I'd suggest something else to you, though.

Maybe you should go back to the beginning and read through.
You might find it informative, if you manage put aside your preconceptions first.

Regarding the files I posted, I certainly need no permission from you to do it.

Also, bear in mind, that without the extensive use of digital recordings to make my comparisons, I'd never be able to shape a conclusive opinion.

When I shape my own opinion, I try to do it based on the facts I can gather, rather than just heresay and conjecture.

I'd advise you to follow a similar route, if you are ever interested in similar conclusions.

sliceofhogan
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by sliceofhogan » 17 Jul 2018 11:35

Listening to music I use my digital sources, enjoying music I use my trurntables.

Being an IT developer since 1979 :oops: and - in my youth - a gadget freak, ofcourse I had to have the Sony slc9 (with dedicated digital recorder), the first cd player, the first htpc (still own one btw) - the list goes on.... and have tried many, many ad/da solutions. Still have a large collection of HDCD's/SACD's/DTS/discs etc. Can also stream highest resolution from my SAN (yes, not NAS).
However, nothing beats my analog sources - to my ears 8) So any digital comparison is useless to me.

I tend to favor more and more simple (but quality) solutions over complex technology. Probably an old man's syndrome :mrgreen:

billshurv
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by billshurv » 17 Jul 2018 11:49

I think you are confusing 'enjoyment' with 'quality'. These are often different. Vinyl is a horribly flawed source. But enjoyable. And picking a setup that gives you enjoyment is important, but that doesn't automatically infer any measure of goodness.

mamakasou
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by mamakasou » 17 Jul 2018 12:01

sliceofhogan wrote: However, nothing beats my analog sources - to my ears 8) So any digital comparison is useless to me.
You miss the actual point here.
The digital recordings are not for using them as an alternative to your records.
I prefer the analog sound too. I find it superior to the digital recordings.
And I say this, after I 've done extensive auditions.

The point of digitally recording (using the same chain of recording equipment) your cartridges, is to serve another purpose.

The purpose is being able to compare your cartridges, with an A/B and/or ABX methodology.
It's the easiest and most reliable method to achieve that.

I have had to repeat the above statement many times.
Seems like some people have understood otherwise.

But, it's really simple if you think of it.
The whole process of recording them might be a bit tedious, but the actual reason for doing it, I though was self-explanatory.

No?

sliceofhogan
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by sliceofhogan » 17 Jul 2018 12:06

I think not ;)
Listening to music I use my digital sources, enjoying music I use my turntables.
Like Leonard Cohen said: "There is a crack in everything, that's how the light comes in". Perfection is often very, very, boring. And can more easily be achived with digital systems, as we only have to deal with true or false.
Enjoying music, as any emotion, is impossible to measure objectively. So why bother?
Why do speakers or cartridges with similar specifications and measurements sound so differently? I haven't found an answer yet - some things can not be valued by objective data.

mamakasou
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by mamakasou » 17 Jul 2018 12:20

sliceofhogan wrote: Why do speakers or cartridges with similar specifications and measurements sound so differently? I haven't found an answer yet - some things can not be valued by objective data.
I maintain the same.
The only measurement i ultimately trust, is the one done by my ears.
Subjective, I know. But, that's how it is.

Hanuman
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by Hanuman » 17 Jul 2018 14:45

sliceofhogan wrote:Why do speakers or cartridges with similar specifications and measurements sound so differently?
You could add microphones to that and we know that studio engineers include subjective judgment in their miking decisions. I'm sure Neumann thinks it's improved its microphone design since 1947 and makes more accurate mikes now and yet the U47 still gets used. It seems that when it comes to transducers the published specs are mostly useless predictors of sonic character.

billshurv
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by billshurv » 17 Jul 2018 15:13

The problem with measurements of speakers and cartridges is that very few people know what to measure, and even fewer can interpret those and the industry tries very hard to keep it that way. Flowery marketing and ignorance is the preferred state in 21st century audio.

I'm interested in knowing what causes certain things.

As for the emotion of listening, like wine tasting it is something that only makes sense in the moment as a shared experience. You cannot describe it in a meaningful way.

a.wayne
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by a.wayne » 17 Jul 2018 15:14

mamakasou wrote:
sliceofhogan wrote: However, nothing beats my analog sources - to my ears 8) So any digital comparison is useless to me.
You miss the actual point here.
The digital recordings are not for using them as an alternative to your records.
I prefer the analog sound too. I find it superior to the digital recordings.
And I say this, after I 've done extensive auditions.

The point of digitally recording (using the same chain of recording equipment) your cartridges, is to serve another purpose.

The purpose is being able to compare your cartridges, with an A/B and/or ABX methodology.
It's the easiest and most reliable method to achieve that.

I have had to repeat the above statement many times.
Seems like some people have understood otherwise.

But, it's really simple if you think of it.
The whole process of recording them might be a bit tedious, but the actual reason for doing it, I though was self-explanatory.

No?

Its one method not “the” only method and why when discussing SOTA analog the MM musketters feel the need to turn everything to MM vs MC ..

Theres a reason why the very popular MM cartridge gave way to MC cartridges in a free market , give that some thought, there’s also a reason why most analog philes have more than one cartridge , arm and or TT ‘s , try playing a grado on some pressings and you run from the noise, an AT MM playback on a Duestche gramophone Is bone thin, There’s a reason the DL103 survived all those decades , millions of old pressings favor them , collectors thrive ...

Horses courses ...!

You guys need to get out more ... :)



Regards

mamakasou
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by mamakasou » 17 Jul 2018 15:52

billshurv wrote:The problem with measurements of speakers and cartridges is that very few people know what to measure, and even fewer can interpret those and the industry tries very hard to keep it that way. Flowery marketing and ignorance is the preferred state in 21st century audio.
I 'm all for measurements and specifications.
Always a good thing.

However, it is only half of the story.

When put to the test by auditioning each one of them (i'm talking about cartridges), most times the specifications are meaningless.

They can't describe things like soundstage and imaging.
Even tonality is not easy to describe.

So, they do Help, but ultimately you will need to evaluate them by your ears.

Hanuman
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by Hanuman » 17 Jul 2018 15:54

billshurv wrote:Flowery marketing and ignorance is the preferred state in 21st century audio.
I've lately been browsing through the "Gramophone" archive back to the early electrical era - the 1920s - and can assure you that it was ever thus!

I imagine that the modern designers of speakers, for example, have certain a degree of confidence by way of digital analysis and simulation(?). So they must have a dataset of expected and measured performance that means something to them. It would be useless marketing material though.

addicted-to-analog
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by addicted-to-analog » 17 Jul 2018 16:06

Just wondering if folks could just contribute by actually answering the OPs question?

Seems like this conversation has gotten way off track.

Just my opinion.

mamakasou
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by mamakasou » 17 Jul 2018 16:22

a.wayne wrote: Theres a reason why the very popular MM cartridge gave way to MC cartridges in a free market...
Now, seriously, I find your comments irresistible to respond. 8)

Alluding to weak notions, like "free-market" and other really meaningless terms, give me the giggles. :P

The "markets" are neither "free" nor guided by reason... Believe it or not. [-X

They are mostly governed and shaped by capital, greed, aggressive marketing strategies and monopolies.

There are exceptions to the rule as usual, but we are not referring to them right now.

In the end, consumers have to use fair judgment, against a backdrop of marketing heresay and conflicting opinions, in order to get the most for their money.

mamakasou
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Re: The best cartridge money's no object

Post by mamakasou » 17 Jul 2018 16:25

addicted-to-analog wrote: Seems like this conversation has gotten way off track.
Like any true discussion among real people tends to do.. :wink:

What I mean is that it's always a sign of a healthy conversation, to veer off the initial topic a bit.

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