Anti-skate force.

the thin end of the wedge
The Blacksmith
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Anti-skate force.

Post by The Blacksmith » 01 Mar 2018 20:46

Hey all,
So I put a new stylus upgrade on my cartridge. I have a Shelter 201/ p77 and I put a nude line contact on it. The new stylus recommends a love tracking force.
Should I adjust the anti-skate, if so more or less?

tcolegrove
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by tcolegrove » 01 Mar 2018 20:58

The easiest (and best?) way I've found to adjust anti-skate is to put a 12" laser disk on the platter. Place the stylus down in the middle of the playing field and adjust as needed so the tone arm doesn't travel in either direction.

Laser disks are often found at thrift stores for a dollar or two. Just make sure you don't get one that's all scratched up.

The Blacksmith
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by The Blacksmith » 01 Mar 2018 21:04

My plater is acrilic. Would that be okay?

tcolegrove
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by tcolegrove » 01 Mar 2018 21:07

Shouldn't make any difference. Perhaps a bit of slippage but for adjusting anti-skate it wouldn't matter. When you think about it - a laser disk really isn't much different than a vinyl record.

Searing75
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by Searing75 » 01 Mar 2018 23:47

This method does not account for the friction of the groove that creates the need for anti skate in the first place.

TA

Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by TA » 01 Mar 2018 23:57

Use your good eyes or a close-up video recording to see the stylus deflection when touch-down into a groove. Ideally the stylus should not move to the left or right, but stay in the same position as in its up position when antiskate is correct.

tcolegrove
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by tcolegrove » 02 Mar 2018 01:17

Searing75 wrote:This method does not account for the friction of the groove that creates the need for anti skate in the first place.
Prove me wrong but I don't see how groove friction creates a force that pushes the arm to one side. Centrifugal force perhaps, but certainly not groove themselves.

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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by Sunwire » 02 Mar 2018 01:36

Groove friction causes a force that pushes the arm toward the spindle.
It does this because most tonearms are pivoted and have an overhang (they reach beyond the spindle by the amount of the overhang).
Tangential (linear tracking) arms don't require anti-skating because there is no skating force because there is no overhang. The tonearm reaches exactly to the spindle.

There is a huge amount of misinformation about this on the web. Even many "authorities" get it wrong.

There is no centrifugal force on the arm or stylus. Centrifugal forces only occur on objects that are spinning (like the record and the platter). The tonearm is not spinning. It is tracing a groove in the record which is spinning.

Here's an article that gets it right.
http://brujic.gradjevinans.net/HiFi/ve_ ... kating.pdf

Searing75 is correct.
While there is *some* friction when using a blank disk like a video disk. It is less friction than you get from a modulated record groove. So the anti-skating may be too low if the blank disk method is used.

Searing75
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by Searing75 » 02 Mar 2018 04:36

Sunwire wrote:Groove friction causes a force that pushes the arm toward the spindle.
It does this because most tonearms are pivoted and have an overhang (they reach beyond the spindle by the amount of the overhang).
Tangential (linear tracking) arms don't require anti-skating because there is no skating force because there is no overhang. The tonearm reaches exactly to the spindle.

There is a huge amount of misinformation about this on the web. Even many "authorities" get it wrong.

There is no centrifugal force on the arm or stylus. Centrifugal forces only occur on objects that are spinning (like the record and the platter). The tonearm is not spinning. It is tracing a groove in the record which is spinning.

Here's an article that gets it right.
http://brujic.gradjevinans.net/HiFi/ve_ ... kating.pdf

Searing75 is correct.
While there is *some* friction when using a blank disk like a video disk. It is less friction than you get from a modulated record groove. So the anti-skating may be too low if the blank disk method is used.
Exactly! The inner groove friction grabs at the stylus and pulls it in towards the spindle.

Japi Roelofs
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by Japi Roelofs » 02 Mar 2018 12:45

Searing75 wrote:Exactly! The inner groove friction grabs at the stylus and pulls it in towards the spindle.
1) This would then also be the case with tangential tracking arms, but it isn't.
2) There is a skating force present on a grooveless record too, so the groove is not solely responsible for the skating force.

The skating force on a grooveless record is different from a record with grooves, but the difference is not huge. I have tested this, using a grooveless record and a test record with anti-skating test tones. The results were very close, and both were very close to the recommended setting of the turntable.
I always suggest using the method outlined in the user manual, and forget about it.

balky
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by balky » 02 Mar 2018 13:55

Personally, I have always used a one sided record for setting anti-skate values...

Ender Wiggin
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by Ender Wiggin » 02 Mar 2018 15:22

Hi,
there is someone that uses the one-sided record in order to define the "mechanical" point of equilibrium and then tunes the correct AS value with a test record.
Bye

Luca

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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by danmanch » 02 Mar 2018 15:39

I recently found a laser disc at the Thrift store and figured I'd try this method out. I had used the deflection of stylus on set down and listening thru headphones technique. Lots of listening! Never had a test record. I always arrived at the Anti-skate being about 60-70% of the tracking force. I'd figured that was fine, sounded good, stylus looked centered in the groove. Then I put the laser disc on without changing any settings. And son of a gun the Tonearm went pretty quickly to the spindle. This was the case on all three of my tables. So I adjusted the antiskate accordingly till the Tonearm didn't move on the laser disc, and low and behold it matched the tracking force on all three of my tables. Which I verified with my Shure tracking force gauge. So I don't know? Coincidence? Does it sound better, I don't know, But I feel the laser disc has more validity them some will give it.

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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by danmanch » 02 Mar 2018 15:45

And to the OP's question's probably set it right around tracking force. My Shibata tip was the same in this respect.

Sunwire
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Re: Anti-skate force.

Post by Sunwire » 02 Mar 2018 20:03

Personally, I have never worried much about anti-skate settings.
I just set it to the same as the VTF. Never heard any problem.
When I got the HiFi News test record, I used the test tracks on it. It never seemed to indicate a significantly different setting. But it revealed that some cartridges track better than others at high modulation levels.

It the blank disc method ends up giving you the same setting as you would get otherwise, who cares?

My previous post was simply to clarify the reason why there is a skating force and why anti-skating force is needed.
Maybe the blank disc method gives you the same result, but it seems like a weird way to do it. After all, the point of the stylus is not even supposed to touch the record when playing a grooved record, but that is the ONLY part touching a blank disc. So, if the amount of friction produced is the same, that would be a coincidence, not necessarily always true. Maybe the difference is too small to be significant, I don't know.

And NO, linear trackers DON'T experience a skating force, so they don't require anti-skating.
Yes, there is friction from the groove, just as there is for a pivoted tonearm, but the groove friction is directly in line with the tonearm. So it exerts no force to the side that would cause the stylus to "skate".

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