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Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 11 Dec 2018 22:52
by Laila1
patient_ot wrote:
11 Dec 2018 21:53
cafe latte wrote:
28 Nov 2018 21:53
I have both the mp500 and the new Gold 2 highs and detail are the same but Grado is wider IMO.
Channel separation specs:

MP500 >27dB

Gold2 35dB


I think that probably accounts for the wider sound. Hard to match 35dB until you get to some very expensive carts, though some older Stanton models can get there.
Please, dont get me wrong but the widest soundstage I ever have had is with a Decca London Gold(under 15 dB). My 2 Grado Gold2:s measures about 25 dB each.

/ Lars

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 12 Dec 2018 08:36
by cafe latte
Laila1 wrote:
11 Dec 2018 22:52
patient_ot wrote:
11 Dec 2018 21:53
cafe latte wrote:
28 Nov 2018 21:53
I have both the mp500 and the new Gold 2 highs and detail are the same but Grado is wider IMO.
Channel separation specs:

MP500 >27dB

Gold2 35dB


I think that probably accounts for the wider sound. Hard to match 35dB until you get to some very expensive carts, though some older Stanton models can get there.
Please, dont get me wrong but the widest soundstage I ever have had is with a Decca London Gold(under 15 dB). My 2 Grado Gold2:s measures about 25 dB each.

/ Lars
Not correct separation is 25db on Decca gold and super gold. I have the super gold and it is in the instructions.
Chris

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 12 Dec 2018 11:18
by derspankster
cafe latte wrote:
28 Nov 2018 12:09

The new Grado 2 are not veiled.
Chris
Correct - they are not veiled.

der

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 12 Dec 2018 14:59
by Laila1
cafe latte wrote:
12 Dec 2018 08:36
Laila1 wrote:
11 Dec 2018 22:52
patient_ot wrote:
11 Dec 2018 21:53


Channel separation specs:

MP500 >27dB

Gold2 35dB


I think that probably accounts for the wider sound. Hard to match 35dB until you get to some very expensive carts, though some older Stanton models can get there.
Please, dont get me wrong but the widest soundstage I ever have had is with a Decca London Gold(under 15 dB). My 2 Grado Gold2:s measures about 25 dB each.

/ Lars
Not correct separation is 25db on Decca gold and super gold. I have the super gold and it is in the instructions.
Chris
The actual separation varies from example to example depending of ther corekt assembly adjustment. I allso had one Decca that measured about 20 dB and that one gave a less soundstage width.

One thing that I have learned over the years is that it is one thing that you can read in the instruktiwideons and often another thing that you acctually can measure. cafe latte, have you ever measured your Deccas or Grados crosstalk ?

/ Lars

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 12 Dec 2018 23:39
by cafe latte
No not personally but read reviews where they were measured. Decca as everyone knows had terrible quality control for a while, but new now are all very well made indeed and should all be in spec. Mine had its pole pieces miss aligned (80's model) which I fixed and it has also since had a complete rebuild by John Wright and he tests them all before returning so I have no doubt mine is totally in spec as all new ones should be. I have often said when Decca are discussed if someone picks up a used 80's Decca dont mess about just get it serviced. Decca have a stylus tie back which on old ones maybe the cord they used went slack which worst case made things bottom out but alignments were also wrong. Any cart from the 80's which now will be 40 years ish old should be serviced anyway, but all Decca of that age should be serviced. Or just get a new one which will give 25db separation or better for sure..
Chris

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 13 Dec 2018 16:09
by Laila1
Yes, I am well aware of Deccas former(ie 80:s) shortcommings in assembly presision, but Grado for example states 35dB channel separation at 1KHz for Grado Gold2. I have two of them and the separation for both are about 26dB at 1KHz.

/ Lars

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 13 Dec 2018 22:34
by cafe latte
Laila1 wrote:
13 Dec 2018 16:09
Yes, I am well aware of Deccas former(ie 80:s) shortcommings in assembly presision, but Grado for example states 35dB channel separation at 1KHz for Grado Gold2. I have two of them and the separation for both are about 26dB at 1KHz.

/ Lars
Maybe, also maybe you are testing them wrong too, but we were talking Decca and new Decca are not 15db separation neither are serviced ones, reviews I have read the advertised numbers were about right.
Chris

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 13 Dec 2018 22:56
by Laila1
I am just talking about the cartridge that had the widest soundstage that I ever experieed, a Decca with
under 15 dB channel separation. Maybe that the CS and wide of soundstage isnt so tightly coupled? :wink:
For "pin point" stereo, a high and even CS is crucial imo.

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 13 Dec 2018 23:18
by cafe latte
cafe latte wrote:
13 Dec 2018 22:34
Laila1 wrote:
13 Dec 2018 16:09
Yes, I am well aware of Deccas former(ie 80:s) shortcommings in assembly presision, but Grado for example states 35dB channel separation at 1KHz for Grado Gold2. I have two of them and the separation for both are about 26dB at 1KHz.

/ Lars
Maybe, also maybe you are testing them wrong too, but we were talking Decca and new Decca are not 15db separation neither are serviced ones, reviews I have read the advertised numbers were about right.
Chris
And how are you testing the Grado and with what arm and how is it set up?
Chris

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 14 Dec 2018 10:12
by Laila1
"Ortofon Pick up test record", Jelco 750 SA-750D(half the cup oil), the top of the cartridge parallel to the record and 15mm overhang. It really sounds good that way.

/ Lars

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 14 Dec 2018 10:19
by cafe latte
Laila1 wrote:
14 Dec 2018 10:12
"Ortofon Pick up test record", Jelco 750 SA-750D(half the cup oil), the top of the cartridge parallel to the record and 15mm overhang. It really sounds good that way.

/ Lars
Wrong compliance Jelco to heavy also not accurate if you want to know the real separation.
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/70 ... ?showall=1
Chris

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 14 Dec 2018 11:09
by Laila1
Sorry "cafe latte", but in this case it seems to me that you are completely wrong. The Jelco 750D is a "match in heaven" whit the Grado Gold2. I know that it seems kind of strange but I got about 10Hz in vertical resonance frequency and the horisontal one is so well damped that I really cant discover where it is, and all that at 1.50g VTF. It is kind of mystical to me howe Grado manage to get the combination of 1.5g VTF and 10Hz in a Jelco at about 13,5g effective mass, but its a fact

/ Lars.

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 14 Dec 2018 12:29
by cafe latte
Laila1 wrote:
14 Dec 2018 11:09
Sorry "cafe latte", but in this case it seems to me that you are completely wrong. The Jelco 750D is a "match in heaven" whit the Grado Gold2. I know that it seems kind of strange but I got about 10Hz in vertical resonance frequency and the horisontal one is so well damped that I really cant discover where it is, and all that at 1.50g VTF. It is kind of mystical to me howe Grado manage to get the combination of 1.5g VTF and 10Hz in a Jelco at about 13,5g effective mass, but its a fact

/ Lars.
Grado were made for a much lighter arm than yours which is why so many have issues with Grado as compliance match is wrong. Your oil damping is helping as it is on my Kad damper but neither are perfect. Re measuring stereo separation the reason I have never bothered as it is impossible to do without quite expensive equipment properly. Yes we can get an idea of separation with a test record but without the perfect arm and I mean perfect and some very decent equipment it just cant be done accurately at home. Which was my point earlier re separation of the Grado you mentioned, In today's world it is just to easy to check if claims are correct. False advertising is something nobody wants to fight in court so if a seller advertises 35db of separation it is very likely the separation is that or close in of course an optimal arm. Like the link I mentioned said though 20db is about the limit of what are brains can understand so more is basically pointless anyway..
Chris

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 14 Dec 2018 13:16
by Laila1
cafe latte wrote:
14 Dec 2018 12:29
Laila1 wrote:
14 Dec 2018 11:09
Sorry "cafe latte", but in this case it seems to me that you are completely wrong. The Jelco 750D is a "match in heaven" whit the Grado Gold2. I know that it seems kind of strange but I got about 10Hz in vertical resonance frequency and the horisontal one is so well damped that I really cant discover where it is, and all that at 1.50g VTF. It is kind of mystical to me howe Grado manage to get the combination of 1.5g VTF and 10Hz in a Jelco at about 13,5g effective mass, but its a fact

/ Lars.
Grado were made for a much lighter arm than yours which is why so many have issues with Grado as compliance match is wrong. Your oil damping is helping as it is on my Kad damper but neither are perfect. Re measuring stereo separation the reason I have never bothered as it is impossible to do without quite expensive equipment properly. Yes we can get an idea of separation with a test record but without the perfect arm and I mean perfect and some very decent equipment it just cant be done accurately at home*. Which was my point earlier re separation of the Grado you mentioned, In today's world it is just to easy to check if claims are correct. False advertising is something nobody wants to fight in court so if a seller advertises 35db of separation it is very likely the separation is that or close in of course an optimal arm. Like the link I mentioned said though 20db is about the limit of what are brains can understand so more is basically pointless anyway..
Chris
And I am sure that you own the Ortofon test record yourself??? And it is a little bit fun when a lot of writers here and there swears that the better the CS, the wider the soundstage(when in fact it's the other way around). :wink:

*My CS measurment whit other cartridges confirms that it is pretty acurate. I have measured between 12Hz to more than 40Hz trough the years. And its really not so difficult since you can measure CS with only a test record containing a L and R sine wave at 1 KHz, and a voltmeter.

/ Lars

Re: Just how good are Nagaoka cartridges?

Posted: 14 Dec 2018 19:28
by 2002afan
I use a 110 on my SL 1300. I like it, great tracker. Sounds like my Shure cartridges (A VST iii with a M97HE stylus and a V15 iii with an Ed Saunders stylus) with slightly better soundstage. However I like the sound of my Technic VM540ML more for better detail and soundstage. Not AT typical bright either. The Nagaoka doesn't sound as good TO ME as my Denon DL- 110 or 160 that I use on my other system either. I have never heard a 150, 200 or 500 though.
Cheers