Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

the thin end of the wedge
tlscapital
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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by tlscapital » 15 Mar 2019 13:33

billshurv wrote:
15 Mar 2019 12:19
I personally like batteries. But that is a choice.

I'm also old enough to not be sure what Vintage is anymore. 50s, 60s, 70s or 80s?
Vintage is all that and more. For example I love the 1930's 'Bauhaus' "philosophy" in design for the lines and curves in length. This remained of strong influence through the fifties and for some parts up to the mid sixties. The sixties brought the more sharp and cut angles into "modern" design. Garrard 301 versus 401 show that.
cats squirrel wrote:
15 Mar 2019 12:35
vintage (at least for wine, etc) is just the year of the grape, so for hifi kit, it would be the year of manufacture. Vintage does not mean old (although that is what is usually understood!). Old things are just OLD. And just for the record (sorry) retro is a term that describes a new thing made to look as though it was styled years ago. Neither terms Help describe hifi kit, IMHO. Old means old. I am old, certainly not vintage or retro!
But my continued Denon DL-102 is still build the same since 1962. And I have bought some new, some second hand and even once a very early edition (third hand ?) to hear if any different... But not. IMHO it's still a "vintage" cartridge even if bought new. My records are mostly vintage (year of release) and not re-issues.

My actual Leak 'Sandwich' speakers 15 Ohms (early edition post 1962) are vintage. My future DIYed inspired Klipsch 'La Scala' speakers should be called "retro" indeed. And my Thorens turntable originally a TD160 'E' (1983 ?...) totally tweaked "vintage" as well. That since it shares the same skeleton as the TD160 introduced in 1962.

The term "old" refers to "old" ways, technics and "technology" in doing that are not generally in use anymore. Like an old car, an old turntable, an old house... Those are only very rarelyr made anymore like they use to be. An old turntable in this context will mean it to be out of todays standards. That's the way I am hearing it anyway.

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by cats squirrel » 15 Mar 2019 16:46

you have fallen into the same trap, tiscapital. Vintage means 'of a year', any year. You could, if you want, describe your 1962 cart as 1962 vintage, and your 20xx cart as 20xx vintage, and the one you may have bought last year as 2018 vintage. I'll say it again, vintage does not mean old. You could say that you are looking forward to the 2020 vintage cart! :D

And surely 'old' just means not today, not last week, last year, last decade, or last century. They are all old, compared to new. :wink:

Vitodam
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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by Vitodam » 15 Mar 2019 17:47

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for all your answers, I will need some time to go through all of them.

I have no doubt bying better everything and follow the good practice of use of these is the safest way of having the best sound... but it assumes one has the available space and budget for it.

If a 10€ diy buffer is the next best thing then I guess it is worth trying.

My setup is indeed vintage (old), probably not hifi for the creteria of most (td150/3009s2, b&w dm4, sansui au-2200), and all line level inputs are used already. My cart is cheap (at110e) and will stay like this until i can place the tt in a shelf high enough to be out of the reach of my little kids, hence the question of the buffer. Then I might upgrade the amp (staying in the low power oldies) and the cart (either find a v15 III or a good stylus for my n91ed).
Last edited by Vitodam on 15 Mar 2019 17:57, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by Vitodam » 15 Mar 2019 17:55

Concerning the definition of vintage... I am not native speaker, so forgive me of I am wrong, but I understood it depends on how the word is used.

"A wine of the same vintage" would mean "of the same year" but "a vintage wine" would mean a wine of an exceptional year.

Same for equipement, a vintage amplifier would mean an exceptional or at least typical model produced during the golden area of its type/technology.

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by smee4 » 16 Mar 2019 00:26

Vitodam wrote:
15 Mar 2019 17:55
Concerning the definition of vintage... I am not native speaker, so forgive me of I am wrong, but I understood it depends on how the word is used.

"A wine of the same vintage" would mean "of the same year" but "a vintage wine" would mean a wine of an exceptional year.

Same for equipement, a vintage amplifier would mean an exceptional or at least typical model produced during the golden area of its type/technology.
That would be my understanding. One dictionary defn:
denoting something from the past of high quality, especially something representing the best of its kind.
"a vintage Sherlock Holmes adventure"
synonyms: high-quality, quality, prime, choice, select, superior, best

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by tlscapital » 16 Mar 2019 15:18

cats squirrel wrote:
15 Mar 2019 16:46
you have fallen into the same trap, tiscapital. Vintage means 'of a year', any year. You could, if you want, describe your 1962 cart as 1962 vintage, and your 20xx cart as 20xx vintage, and the one you may have bought last year as 2018 vintage. I'll say it again, vintage does not mean old. You could say that you are looking forward to the 2020 vintage cart! :D

And surely 'old' just means not today, not last week, last year, last decade, or last century. They are all old, compared to new. :wink:
"Vintage" is the de-routed Englishized expression of 'vendange' (phonetically; vin d'age, FR = year'ed wine) which in French designate the grape vine pick up. It is evidently seasonally done and on a year of the calendar (Christian for what it's worth) which is dated called in French; the 'millésime' (= year of grape pick up) :knight:

It is seemingly integrated since the early eighties into popular languages to designate quality design, fashion and material of another (hopefully previous) era since the "over done" used and misused term 'oldie' as in [/i] 'oldies BUT goodies' (sic) is an overkill that was just never a "sexy" appellation IMO.

Languages are "alive" and do have some plasticity which, for the record (don't get me started on that one; shellack vinyl, styrene...), are not necessary intended into perversion for "political correctness" reasons. But aim to present consummation products of past Western "culture" like never before.

As things of quality and not just like 'out of the past' as in; where it should remain. Being careful on semantic as much as I can, understandingly to avoid "moral" slip and other softly induced twists in our everyday thinking and perception of our "reality" and presence, I also prefer to be precise and specific with my "words".

Living contemporarily, I hope to find the appropriate words that which implies no prejudice, insult or moral concern to start the III world war. Or any other massacre if ever... (mercy, mercy the ecology) Hence I don't use generic political created words to designate "specific(ied)" horrific human behaviour.

Choosing my words, in regard of "wines" of exception, as one would call un vin de grand millésime (FR: A Wine of Great Year), to designate something else than wine that is "from a year of exception" is complimentary IMB. And so not pejorative like trying to find an excuse as in 'oldies BUT (and the but is rather unforgiving here) goodies'.

I rest my case :starwars:

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by chgc » 16 Mar 2019 16:05

Interesting discussion, but a simple, high quality input switch box is a good solution to the problem as originally posed— “an extra line level aux input… is rarelly available.”

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by billshurv » 17 Mar 2019 00:44

tlscapital wrote:
16 Mar 2019 15:18


"Vintage" is the de-routed Englishized expression of 'vendange' (phonetically; vin d'age, FR = year'ed wine) which in French designate the grape vine pick up. It is evidently seasonally done and on a year of the calendar (Christian for what it's worth) which is dated called in French; the 'millésime' (= year of grape pick up) :knight:

It is seemingly integrated since the early eighties into popular languages to designate quality design, fashion and material of another (hopefully previous) era since the "over done" used and misused term 'oldie' as in [/i] 'oldies BUT goodies' (sic) is an overkill that was just never a "sexy" appellation IMO.
Well to pick a specific example a Vintage car is one made between 1919 and 1930. This term was coined in 1934. So there is precedence from well before the 80s for the use of the word outside of the wine field.

Back on batteries. If you go back far enough then battery power was the norm. My mother still remembers as a child taking accumulators to the shop to be recharged for the radio. So I would suggest that battery powered could be considered 'vintage' ;)

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by chgc » 17 Mar 2019 01:13

Re. the linguistic aspect of this thread, perhaps "vintage" is to "old" as "pre-owned" is to "used."

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by ChrisfromRI » 17 Mar 2019 02:51

You might want to have some amount of gain at the turntable, versus a strict unity gain stage to solve the impedance challenge. I am thinking in terms of the Harold Friis formula of cascaded gains and noise figures within a system. Mathematically a first stage "preamp" with zero dB gain will increase the system noise figure (decrease the signal to noise ratio).

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by billshurv » 17 Mar 2019 23:01

Chris, You are correct if you are aiming for lowest possible noise figure. However for MM you have a couple of issues.

First is that the noise from the cartridge will tend to dominate proceedings so you are not actually losing much if anything from the unity gain buffer.

Second is that the downstream preamp needs to be able to handle this. I do have a specific case I am building something for at the moment where I will be putting some gain right at the turntable*, but in the case in the original question a std MM input will have trouble with more than a couple of dB of gain with an average MM cartridge.

*specific case here is a focusrite Scarlet Microphone input. Level is adjustable so 10dB gain at the turntable can be coped with. Will it work as expected? Dunno till I build and test it, but will report back.

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by Pauw » 17 Mar 2019 23:26

Just for information ...in "common" English use...

Veteran is 25 years old

Antique is 100 years old

Vintage usually older than veteran but, not antique....

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by billshurv » 17 Mar 2019 23:59

Er no. Veteran cars are pre 1919 and vintage are 1919 to 1934.

Not seen a time bounding for veteran outside of the automotive field. Could of course just be another case of English being its usual confusing mess :)

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by dysmike » 18 Mar 2019 00:02

billshurv wrote:
17 Mar 2019 23:59
Er no. Veteran cars are pre 1919 and vintage are 1919 to 1934.

Not seen a time bounding for veteran outside of the automotive field. Could of course just be another case of English being its usual confusing mess :)
Likely so. A terribly non-specific language.

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Re: Onboard buffer for longer phono cable

Post by billshurv » 18 Mar 2019 00:06

The best quote about English I know is from James Nicoll
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary
sums it up for me :)