running carts in

the thin end of the wedge
feldman
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Re: running carts in

Post by feldman » 22 Jan 2020 21:33

aardvarkash10 wrote:
22 Jan 2020 21:18
feldman wrote:
22 Jan 2020 20:58

Now that I think of it, yes, some variables did change when I swapped the new cart for the old one. I distinctly recall that at that moment my wife went to the kitchen and opened the fridge door. That act turned on the fridge light, which totally skewed my listening experience all the way back in my music room.

I therefore retract my original statement -- the experiment was utterly invalidated by one unaccounted variable.
Accepted in the tone of good humour it has been delivered in!
Haha! Hi fi paranoia is a slippery slope we all risk falling into.

justjed0001
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Re: running carts in

Post by justjed0001 » 22 Jan 2020 23:24

"I feel your post shows a total lack of understanding of how to design a good Scientific investigation."

@Pauw, I wasn't really trying to design a good scientific experiment. I was trying(tongue in cheek) to cover all the bases, because no matter how rigorous the standards, or how comprehensive the methodology may be, and no matter the results, SOMEONE(or many someones) will still say that they don't believe. Only by testing, measuring, and LISTENING to every combination of tonearms, cartridges, and stylus types can one hope to convince those who believe differently. In many ways, audio is no different from politics....

Pauw
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Re: running carts in

Post by Pauw » 23 Jan 2020 10:39

justjed0001 wrote:
22 Jan 2020 23:24
"I feel your post shows a total lack of understanding of how to design a good Scientific investigation."

@Pauw, I wasn't really trying to design a good scientific experiment. I was trying(tongue in cheek) to cover all the bases, because no matter how rigorous the standards, or how comprehensive the methodology may be, and no matter the results, SOMEONE(or many someones) will still say that they don't believe. Only by testing, measuring, and LISTENING to every combination of tonearms, cartridges, and stylus types can one hope to convince those who believe differently. In many ways, audio is no different from politics....
No ..I can't agree......once a good Scientific investigation has been designed , carried out and has been found reproducible that is stage one. Stage two is to communicate the results and reproducibility well and clearly. Then of course there will be people who challenge, these can be met with reasoned argument re-inforced by the reproducible facts. Then the body of opinion is built and the people are brought on side. Those who are not capable of understanding the facts and the reasoning put to them will remain unconvinced.....However are they important . they are no able to join in this process and their opinions are light weight , unsubstantiated and will be disregarded.......

But of course you knew all this .........or did you ?

balky
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Re: running carts in

Post by balky » 23 Jan 2020 12:21

:tired:

justjed0001
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Re: running carts in

Post by justjed0001 » 24 Jan 2020 02:31

Oh, I'm relatively certain I knew it at some point, and it's probably still on a shelf in the attic somewhere, but I don't go up there much. And most of the time I speak in basic generalities, even if it might not be necessary. It's a defense mechanism in response to dealing with idiots who assume I'm one of them.

My apologies if I have offended you. I'm not a scientist, or even an engineer. I'm a technician. Just don't assume that I'm a moron.

Done here.

aardvarkash10
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Re: running carts in

Post by aardvarkash10 » 24 Jan 2020 04:08

justjed0001 wrote:
22 Jan 2020 23:24
In many ways, audio is no different from politics....
nah - it's way more important than politics.

andybeau
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Re: running carts in

Post by andybeau » 24 Jan 2020 08:59

aardvarkash10 wrote:
24 Jan 2020 04:08
justjed0001 wrote:
22 Jan 2020 23:24
In many ways, audio is no different from politics....
nah - it's way more important than politics.
And controversial :wink:

feldman
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Re: running carts in

Post by feldman » 24 Jan 2020 20:33

Pauw wrote:
23 Jan 2020 10:39
justjed0001 wrote:
22 Jan 2020 23:24
"I feel your post shows a total lack of understanding of how to design a good Scientific investigation."

@Pauw, I wasn't really trying to design a good scientific experiment. I was trying(tongue in cheek) to cover all the bases, because no matter how rigorous the standards, or how comprehensive the methodology may be, and no matter the results, SOMEONE(or many someones) will still say that they don't believe. Only by testing, measuring, and LISTENING to every combination of tonearms, cartridges, and stylus types can one hope to convince those who believe differently. In many ways, audio is no different from politics....
No ..I can't agree......once a good Scientific investigation has been designed , carried out and has been found reproducible that is stage one. Stage two is to communicate the results and reproducibility well and clearly. Then of course there will be people who challenge, these can be met with reasoned argument re-inforced by the reproducible facts. Then the body of opinion is built and the people are brought on side. Those who are not capable of understanding the facts and the reasoning put to them will remain unconvinced.....However are they important . they are no able to join in this process and their opinions are light weight , unsubstantiated and will be disregarded.......

But of course you knew all this .........or did you ?
To me, audio reproduction is sort of like food. If you like what you're eating, no one can spoil your enjoyment by telling you that the food on your plate does not possess good scientifically proven measurements. Same goes for audio.

If I like the sound of my cartridge better after it has been broken in for few dozen hours, no scientist can convince me otherwise. I like what I'm hearing, I'm prepared to pay with my own money for that, end of discussion.

33audio
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Re: running carts in

Post by 33audio » 25 Jan 2020 06:22

Agrippa said at the beginning of this thread:
An excerpt from a 60s text on diamond stylus polishing I once read mentioned a fineness of 0.5 microns. Whether that was common or exceptional I can't remember, but it really doesn't matter - this was in the 60s, with very different equipment than what is available today.

In other words the polished diamond, even if barely polished at all, has a vastly more even surface than the groove wall of an LP and won't be smoothed one bit by playing them. It'll certainly wear down, extremely slowly (given a good quality diamond), but the the moment you first lower it onto a record (and the time prior to that happening) is when the stylus is at its very smoothest.
First, a nominal figure for anything in electronics and engineering is a "nominal" figure. It is like horsepower in a car. That's what the brochure says. There are tolerances and also worn machine parts that are not replaced until they get to a certain point. That's just manufacturing. There are also employees that have no problem with screwing things up when no one is looking. Not everywhere, but it does happen.

A groove wall has a standard angle. It doesn't matter if the wall is not perfectly smooth. It all averages out when it takes miles and miles of vinyl to smooth the diamond.

Diamond is very hard. Thus, even a small high spot can be significant.

A clean groove is necessary for good results .

I was told by Pete Bidwell who worked at Stanton in the late 90s that the tolerance for the size of a stylus is +/-20%
I recall that Joe Grado said much the same thing. If they can't get the size any closer than that then how could they perfectly shape the tracing area of the diamond? Having a meticulous polish is one thing. Having the tracing area perfectly level with no high spots is another issue.

Actually, the tracing area is basically an arc when new. It will develop a small flat in a short time. The stylus begins to ride on the edges of the flat (when in the trough of the wave) but there is enough curvature to keep the edge of the flat from cutting the vinyl. When the flat gets too big it begins to cut into the vinyl. The angle at which the groove wall interfaces with the tracing area is always changing as the groove modulation moves across the diamond.

When the diamond goes over the crest of the wave it will ride on the flat until it goes past the edge and encounters the curvature of the diamond. In all positions the groove wall is polishing and shaping the diamond.

If they are using lasers instead of abrasion to shape the diamonds today (as compared to years ago) then I would think seating in a diamond would be even more important today. Laser trimming is a burning process. It leaves rough edges.

I am amazed that it all works as well as it does. IMHO Regards, Mark

2002afan
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Re: running carts in

Post by 2002afan » 26 Jan 2020 01:11

pivot wrote:
15 Jan 2020 16:31
AT 440 MLa new stylus goes through a "harsh and bright as hell" stage till about 50 to 100 hours in. It's not subtle at all. The word on street is the newer 450ML does not need the same run in. Have not heard it yet.
Pivot you are so right about new AT carts (replacement stylus too). :roll: Especially the Shibata, it sounds like a Banshee. #-o Then after a few albums things settle down and the real enjoyment begins. :P
Cheers,
WillO

farispaul
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Re: running carts in

Post by farispaul » 26 Jan 2020 07:16

2002afan wrote:
26 Jan 2020 01:11
pivot wrote:
15 Jan 2020 16:31
AT 440 MLa new stylus goes through a "harsh and bright as hell" stage till about 50 to 100 hours in. It's not subtle at all. The word on street is the newer 450ML does not need the same run in. Have not heard it yet.
Pivot you are so right about new AT carts (replacement stylus too). :roll: Especially the Shibata, it sounds like a Banshee. #-o Then after a few albums things settle down and the real enjoyment begins. :P
Cheers,
WillO
I love the Banshees, I wish all cartridges could sound like Siouxsie and the Banshees!
Seriously tho', my Nagaoka MP200 sounded ok, then one night, WOW! Dynamic, powerful and great tone and texture.

Twigman
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Re: running carts in

Post by Twigman » 31 Jan 2020 12:35

Erin1 wrote:
15 Jan 2020 05:37

The same happens with new speaker drivers.
Oh yes - I play bass and ran in my Barefaced Super12T https://barefacedbass.com/product-range ... twelve.htm with a 25Hz sine wave for a couple of hours to loosen up the suspension - the house was shaking!

backtotheblack
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Re: running carts in

Post by backtotheblack » 02 Feb 2020 02:36

almost there but not quite... i would say around 55hrs. still have a bit of sibilance now and again but very dependant on recording... sounding a lot less "cold" and a lot less congested.

i dont listen via speakers and use headphones exclusively so pretty revealing.

Pink Triangle PT-TOO, Rega RB250 (soon to be Audiomods), Michell Tecnoweight, VTA Adjuster.
Reson cart body with Goldring 1042 Stylus.
Schiit Mani.
Schiit Vali 2.
BD DT-880 600ohm.

i dont buy into all the audiofool cable malarkey. good quality and decent connectors is all that matters to me.

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