WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

the thin end of the wedge
tlscapital
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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by tlscapital » 17 Dec 2018 13:53

andyr wrote:
17 Dec 2018 05:57
Sad to hear you didn't get a benefit from your purchase ... but, if you experiment ... sometimes you get a benefit ... and sometimes you don't! :)

Still can't understand how, when you're not using the 1:2 SUT, your phono stage is set to 60dB, though??

60dB = 1000x the input signal. I understood your HOMC was 3mV ... so you must be outputting 3000mV (ie. 3v) from the phono stage. Do you have your preamp volume control set waaay down low? I use 60dB gain with my 0.24mV ZYX LOMC - which delivers 240mV to my preamp (not 3000mV!). And even so, my preamp vol ctrl is not wound up to max.

Andy
Well my preamp doesn't have a volume control. My power amp has one and is set most of the time to play half way most of the time. It's power is only made of 40 Watts maximum. But it's so dynamic, clear and neutral and sounds at least double that out of my low power speakers. Hence I am expecting tomorrow an 'Integral 2' second hand (120 W).

There is no power specs given for my Leak 'Sandwiches' 2 ways at 15 Ohms initially, but values have change since my recap in series instead of in parallel as initially. Those 'Sandwiches' originally "mellow" sounding where made to be linked to low power valve amp. So I can't say what's happening there but the settings on my preamp sound best as.

viperz
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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by viperz » 14 Jan 2020 19:34

Sorry for resuscitating an old topic... I'm trying to figure out how someone is using CM-3440AH transformer, which provides 150 Ohm loading with Hana SL, which is looking for >400 Ohm loading... Thank you..

EDIT... oh, I think I forgot to count the MM stage impedance... 47K through 1:10 transformer, should provide around 470 Ohms.. but how do you count the impedance of the transformer primary winding in the equation, or is it just going to be in series with reflected MM stage impedance?

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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by viperz » 15 Jan 2020 01:32

I think I figured it out finally after reading two different tutorials.
Bottom line is that I don't like my DL-103 with AU-310 1:10. This gives me 2.7mV or so on the SUT output, which has too noisy floor at high volumes.

I'd like to find transformer that would do approximately 1:35 ratio for this 40-Ohm cartridge. This should give me about 5.4mV on SUT output, which would work great. It seems that CM 3440 AH is an almost ideal candidate.

andyr
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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by andyr » 15 Jan 2020 02:20

viperz wrote:
15 Jan 2020 01:32
I think I figured it out finally after reading two different tutorials.
Bottom line is that I don't like my DL-103 with AU-310 1:10. This gives me 2.7mV or so on the SUT output, which has too noisy floor at high volumes.

I'd like to find transformer that would do approximately 1:35 ratio for this 40-Ohm cartridge. This should give me about 5.4mV on SUT output, which would work great. It seems that CM 3440 AH is an almost ideal candidate.
Now you fall down the rabbit hole which SUTs lead you into! :shock:

1:35 means the load seen by your DL103 will be 47000 / 35*35. Which is 38 ohms.

The specs for the D103 say the coil impedance is "40 ohms (1975–2007); 14 ohms (2017)". You haven't specified how old your D103 is but, either way ... 38 ohms is waaay too low for the best loading. If it's:
* an old D103, I would suggest the optimum load is anywhere between 400 ohms (10x coil impedance) and 4000 ohms (100x)
* a new D103, then the optimum loading will be between 140 ohms and 1400 ohms.

Why not use a head amp to increase the 0.25mV output of your D103, instead of a SUT? Then you can apply the to-you-best loading, irrespective of the gain which the head amp offers.

Andy

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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by sliceofhogan » 15 Jan 2020 12:09

Sorry, obsolete :mrgreen:

viperz
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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by viperz » 15 Jan 2020 15:47

It is definitely an older 40-Ohm DL-103, not the new version. It is currently being used with AU-310 Denon 1:10 SUT, which was designed for it, and that SUT does provide effective loading of *470* Ohm according to my understanding - https://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMB ... 310-e.html

My apologies, math doesn't work for me in the morning. 47000/10^2 = 470 Ohm load.

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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by viperz » 15 Jan 2020 16:21

I never tried head amp - what kind of amp would you recommend?

And what SUT would work as you mentioned - provide 400+ Ohm loading and 20-30x gain? Thank you!

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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by andyr » 15 Jan 2020 19:57

viperz wrote:
15 Jan 2020 16:21
And what SUT would work as you mentioned - provide 400+ Ohm loading and 20-30x gain? Thank you!
None - according to the immutable maths! :D

A 20x SUT means the load it gives for a standard MM phono stage is 47000 / (20x20). Which is 118 ohms.

You would need to replace the 47K default load resistors by 200K resistors - this would give you a load of 200K / (20x20) ... which is 500 ohms.
viperz wrote:
15 Jan 2020 16:21
I never tried head amp - what kind of amp would you recommend?
There are 3 ready-made ones that I know of:
* Graham Slee 'Elevator'
* Hagerman 'Piccolo', and
* AKSA 'Paris'.

Only the latter is built with parallel input RCAs to allow for load resistors as well as the phono cable (without needing to use RCA 'T' connectors).

Andy

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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by viperz » 16 Jan 2020 20:18

Hi Andy, thank you so much for your detailed response!

Yes, I crunched the numbers day before yesterday, and came to the same conclusion. I just feel that I spent all this money incorrectly on something matching cartridge compliance to tonearm effective mass, but not really looked into overall gains properly. I like to listen a little loud, which works great with my MM carts with output of 6-8mV. So I might just sell my Denon DL-103 (0.3mV) with AU-310 SUT, and Benz Micro Silver HOMC (2mV), and start all over again when I will have money...
Get MC cartridge with low internal resistance like 3-5 Ohms, then match it with SUT of 1:20 or 1:30 ratio - there seem to be quite a few... This theoretically would give me an output from SUT of 5-6mV, which would probably make me very happy, and I won't have to raise volume past 1-2 o'clock to get to my comfortable listening volume levels.

This of course means, I'll end up with MM cart on one of my two tables, which I don't mind anymore, as long as I have a very resolving MC cart on the 2nd table with SUT outputting 5-6mV.

Oh my... what a rabbit hole...

DeepEnd
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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by DeepEnd » 16 Jan 2020 21:43

Their is another head amp that would cope with both the Denon and possibly even the
Benz due to adjustable impedance AND gain.

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/ ... adamp.html

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Re: WOW!! I just installed an SUT and it is incredible

Post by gullkeoby » 17 Jan 2020 15:20

viperz wrote:
16 Jan 2020 20:18
Hi Andy, thank you so much for your detailed response!

Yes, I crunched the numbers day before yesterday, and came to the same conclusion. I just feel that I spent all this money incorrectly on something matching cartridge compliance to tonearm effective mass, but not really looked into overall gains properly. I like to listen a little loud, which works great with my MM carts with output of 6-8mV. So I might just sell my Denon DL-103 (0.3mV) with AU-310 SUT, and Benz Micro Silver HOMC (2mV), and start all over again when I will have money...
Get MC cartridge with low internal resistance like 3-5 Ohms, then match it with SUT of 1:20 or 1:30 ratio - there seem to be quite a few... This theoretically would give me an output from SUT of 5-6mV, which would probably make me very happy, and I won't have to raise volume past 1-2 o'clock to get to my comfortable listening volume levels.

This of course means, I'll end up with MM cart on one of my two tables, which I don't mind anymore, as long as I have a very resolving MC cart on the 2nd table with SUT outputting 5-6mV.

Oh my... what a rabbit hole...
hey i use a denon 103 with this sut -http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/PLT-1/PLT-1.htm you need two of them and you have to build that but it work really great with denon103 -i think author build it with 103 in mind...there also in his phono stage Softone model 4 http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/Model4/m4-1.htm with same Sut inside...even more about this specific Sut you have here -https://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com/201 ... ep-up.html

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