antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

snap, crackle and pop
plexi
senior member
senior member
Posts: 526
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 00:04

antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by plexi » 11 Oct 2017 07:44

I would think somewhere on the web, this has been done/tried/explained, but as I'm searching for the answer, I thought i'd ask here;

- is it possible to introduce a bit of antiskate to an arm simple by putting it out of level in the correct direction? let's say you've got an arm on a standalone armpod and one puts 4 very precise adjustable feet on bottom so the arm could be back to front level, but L/R a bit out of level. I know this is enough to make an arm swing one way or the other (see vid), and of course one would adjust so that it swings out towards the edge to go against the natural inwards skate, but is this sonically a good method and/or equivalent to the traditional methods (magnet/spring/weights/wire twist) ? twisting wires for example puts physical pressure in one direction, why couldn't the mass of the arm itself be used against itself by putting it out of L/R level? or am I missing some obvious fact that prevents this from working. the isolated arm pod is the key however since the table itself could be level in both directions.


basically what I would do is keep adjusting arm pods' feet until the arm doesn't skate on a grooveless LP, or stationary while tracking the small space prior to runout as soundsmith suggests. but however one sets the skate, the question is - is it possible to introduce this via 'tilt' ? And if so, would this method be any better or worse than the other 4 methods? or have different sonic results? My first thought - it may be a good solution as it is non invasive and possibly has less negative affects as a magnet may have for example (apparently the magnets can disturb the arm in unintended ways I've read. or that weight can introduce a small amount of 'rocking' into the arm because it is swinging ever so minutely etc, but the tilt method may not have any unintended negative consequence?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m0hdgb ... e=youtu.be

tckmet
member
member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Dec 2012 11:35
Location: Cuyahoga Falls Ohio

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by tckmet » 11 Oct 2017 08:36

Could you also do it with an elliptical tonearm weight positioned offset to have the arm pull in the direction you would want to off set the skating effect????

plexi
senior member
senior member
Posts: 526
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 00:04

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by plexi » 11 Oct 2017 08:48

make the end counterweight oblong and weightier on one side of it's geometry, yes that is similar idea except that may introduced all the 'skate affect' at one end point where as an -out of level arm- would be introducing the bias distributed along the entire arm/counterweight, but yes that is a similar question I have and while both are maybe do-able or have been done, I haven't really heard of either. I've heard of putting the entire table out of level but I'm thinking - just the arm. I assume if the out of level table is possible, the tilted arm should be as good or better solution, but hopefully others can enlighten or add to why either of these is possible/impossible/desireable/undesirable or hopefully, a discussion about it's possible sonic qualities/benefits?

tckmet
member
member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Dec 2012 11:35
Location: Cuyahoga Falls Ohio

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by tckmet » 11 Oct 2017 09:24

I owned a VPI Classic once and to set horizontil azimuth you had a rotatable weight to align that setting just throwing that in for GP. So what do you think is the best anti skate system/device to use?

plexi
senior member
senior member
Posts: 526
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 00:04

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by plexi » 11 Oct 2017 21:43

was that rotating weight the end stub/counterweight ? or a separate weight?

mjwraw
member
member
Posts: 145
Joined: 17 Mar 2007 13:11
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by mjwraw » 12 Oct 2017 17:22

The Thorens TP82 tonearm is one that has a second 'eccentric' counter-weight for changing azimuth: https://thorens.com/en/overview-tonearms.html?id=151

plexi
senior member
senior member
Posts: 526
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 00:04

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by plexi » 13 Oct 2017 09:19

good to know...still wonder how similar that is to an out of level arm and whether such a thing is a legitimate way to introduce antiskate.

Garry71
junior member
junior member
Posts: 13
Joined: 11 Oct 2017 15:40

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by Garry71 » 13 Oct 2017 10:53

plexi wrote:I would think somewhere on the web, this has been done/tried/explained, but as I'm searching for the answer, I thought i'd ask here;

- is it possible to introduce a bit of antiskate to an arm simple by putting it out of level in the correct direction? let's say you've got an arm on a standalone armpod ...
Wouldn't the platter have to be tilted as well? If you just tilt the tonearm wouldn't the stylus tip be angled more towards one side of the groove instead of sitting vertically in the middle of it?

ripblade
long player
long player
Canada
Posts: 1011
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 19:51
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by ripblade » 14 Oct 2017 18:24

Garry71 wrote:
plexi wrote:I would think somewhere on the web, this has been done/tried/explained, but as I'm searching for the answer, I thought i'd ask here;

- is it possible to introduce a bit of antiskate to an arm simple by putting it out of level in the correct direction? let's say you've got an arm on a standalone armpod ...
Wouldn't the platter have to be tilted as well? If you just tilt the tonearm wouldn't the stylus tip be angled more towards one side of the groove instead of sitting vertically in the middle of it?
Transcriptors' Vestigal arm did just that but it wasn't very good as the vertical pivot just behind the shell caused the VTA to vary with the stylus position on the record.

I'm not sure if tilting the entire deck would be ideal but I haven't tried it. Also not sure it would even work at all with a dynamically balanced arm.

plexi
senior member
senior member
Posts: 526
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 00:04

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by plexi » 14 Oct 2017 23:13

Wouldn't the platter have to be tilted as well? If you just tilt the tonearm wouldn't the stylus tip be angled more towards one side of the groove instead of sitting vertically in the middle of it?


the platter has to be level for platter reasons but yes once the tilt in the armpod is created (it will be very slight I think) then you'd just recheck cart azimuth and adjust there if needed, then cart is level with record and platter and arm is only thing out




Transcriptors' Vestigal arm did just that but it wasn't very good as the vertical pivot just behind the shell caused the VTA to vary with the stylus position on the record.


If I understand this, due to arm tilt, this problem was created? If so, wouldn't that be a very small inconspicuous variance? probably measurable but all that matter to me is what I can hear. I know i've had arm/platter relationships far from perfectly level from each other in many of my experiments in pairings an armpod to a platter, and have not been disasitisfied, so I would assume this slight axis issue created by arm tilt would also be below hearing threshold for me. Especially since the upside of this idea is so potent. It mean I can now use the old AR and Lenco l70 arms etc which had no antiskate. That is a big upside in my book compared to a small axis issue, if indeed it is as negligable as I am assuming. I admit it may not be but, I will soon try this idea to find out....

nat
long player
long player
Posts: 3667
Joined: 07 Nov 2002 20:05

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by nat » 18 Oct 2017 23:59

I believe you have to tilt the whole table, not just the arm (though tilting the arm with the cartridge then twisted so that the stylus is aligned correctly would also work). But it will only work if you have an arm that applies tracking force by moving the counterweight or a tracking force weight - if tracking force is applied by a spring, tilting will have no antiskating effect since such arms are balanced front to back.
I wonder, though, how much tilt must be applied, and what effect that has on any motor or subchassis that is suspended.

plexi
senior member
senior member
Posts: 526
Joined: 12 Nov 2014 00:04

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by plexi » 19 Oct 2017 02:01

if tracking force is applied by a spring, tilting will have no antiskating effect since such arms are balanced front to back.

hmmm, did not consider this...but are you sure? why would front to back balance interfere with the side to side force balance? Not able to mentally picture why a spring balance would interfere with side to side adjustment....will think about this...

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 454
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by H. callahan » 19 Oct 2017 03:51

I think it would be possible to get an AS via arm-tilt, but it should be pretty complicated for several reasons.

The arm swings across the record and therefore the ammount of weight pulling the arm to the side if tilted might vary. Just think of a pendulum. If you swing it up to the top it maybe won´t move at all (down, left or right) as its mass is right above the pivot, or it´ll start moving down slowly at first. If you only move it half way up it´ll fall down quickly as its mass is far away from the pivot.
So a tilted arm also might pull harder and weaker, depending on how far its mass is away from its pivoting point.
Maybe one could use that to achive better AS, as you need more AS at the beginning of the record than at the end anyway, but it might be complicated.

As the mass of the cartridge also does affect the force a tilted arm is pushed by, the tilt of the arm had to be adjusted if you swap a cartridge for another one having a different weight.
Same goes for different tonearms having different mass - and maybe even lenght, as the lenght of the tonearm defines how far the weight of the cartridge is away from the pivoting point (which again should define AS-force).

Adjusting AS also would need a change in the tilt of the arm - and as you need to change AS when you change VTF you´d best need a scaling device for the arm-tilt.

Depending on how far the arm needs to be tilted to achieve the requiered ammount of AS, you may need to consider the effect of the tilt on VTF. Let´s say were tilting the complete tt by 45°. Way too much of course, but easy to imagine. Now if the tt is tilted by 45° only 50% of the VTF would be pushing the stylus into the groove, but the other 50% of VTF would act as an AS-force.
You see that the VTF dialed on the tonearm gets divided into the actual VTF and AS, so you may need to take that into account because you´re loosing in VTF what you gain in AS-force - and in the end the cartridge doesn´t track at, let´s say, 1.5g, but fewer, though 1.5g is dialed in on the tonearm-counterweight.
Apart from that a tilted counterweight also doens´t give all its mass for VTF, so here is also some calculation/compensation requiered to regain the dialed in VTF in real life.

Another thing is most headshells being offset on the tonearm. Now if you tilt the tonearm along its axis, the tilt is pulling the tonearm to the right, but the cartridge is offset which means the cartridge is pulled to the right AND backwards. But as the skating-force is pulling the cartridge to the left only, you want an AS which pulls the cartridge to the right only.
Therefore you´d need to tilt the tonearm in a way so its tilted within the axis of the headshell, not the arm-axis.
And because the arm swings across the record the axis of the cartridge does change a little. Not much but it might result in inconsistent AS.


Last but not least you´d need a reliable way of measuring the ammount of AS your tilted tonearm produces with a certain cartridge (and probably for VTF, too) - because there are a lot of factors going into, so it might be hard to calculate it correct.
................

Depending on how much the arm needs to be tilted there indeed is a problem in VTA, as ripblade said. If the arm is tilted to the right, the arm-heigth relative to the record does change. From the perspective of the record the arm pivot is higher at the end of the record, than at the beginning.

tckmet
member
member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Dec 2012 11:35
Location: Cuyahoga Falls Ohio

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by tckmet » 19 Oct 2017 04:00

Sorry for the delay (plexi) it was a seperate weight that was the design on the uni pivot arms that VPI makes and you turned it to align the cartridge to be horizontal to the plane of the platter/record.

H. callahan
senior member
senior member
Posts: 454
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 18:59

Re: antiskate via ' tilt' ? possible

Post by H. callahan » 19 Oct 2017 04:20

Thinking about it there is another, even bigger problem:

Were again tilting the complete tt by 45° and the counterweight is adjusted that way that there is a real VTF of 1.5g. Then there also is AS of 1.5g.
Then were re-tilting the tt to 22.5°, now were reducing AS by 50% but increase VTF by 50%!

This means everytime you change VTF, you also change AS and everytime you change AS you also change VTF. Therefore by tilting the tonearm VTF and AS are bound toghether and can´t be changed separately from each other any more. This results in a lot of adjusting every time one wants to try a different VTF or AS - and before you can do that you need to make a lot of measurements to get correct scales for VTF and AS, or you even have to measure VTF and AS every time you change one of these two because they´re depending on each other.

Post Reply