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Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

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Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 05 Aug 2017 14:31

I picked up a Sony PS-5100 in excellent condition it was only suppose to be a Belt replacement.
But once I put the Belt on, though I could hear what sounds like motor noise but nothing was moving.
So after removing the plater and trying to turn the motor spindle by hand, I had a lot of resistance, so I oiled the shaft and loosened it up and it can be turned but not spin freely. Once power is applied, I can still hear noise but the motor spindle still does not turn, not even when I give it a manual twist while power is applied.
I am surprised that it makes a sound even though the motor spindle/shaft is not rotating at all?

Any advise is welcomed, do you think the motor is shot?, could it be a bearing in the motor?
I am not familiar with these 4 pole Hysteresis Synchronous motor, HC-414 and if it is not repairable then how can I get one?
Thanks George
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby musicmn » 05 Aug 2017 17:10

Hi, it sounds like the bottom bearing could be gummed up from old oil. I recently had and old pioneer turntable in my shop for servicing. The motor would make noise but just like yours it would not turn. After disassembling the motor cleaning the bottom bearing ( it was caked in old dried up oil) and the rotor shaft then putting fresh oil in the bearing the motor worked great. I personally would try to clean and oil the bottom bearing before trying to find a replacement. I hope this helps.
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 05 Aug 2017 23:19

Thanks for you suggestion it gives me hope, only issue is I can,t see an easy way to dismantle or get to the bottom bearing. It does not look to me that it was designed to easily provide access. I will try and post a photo, and welcome suggestions on how to attempt this.
Thanks George
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 05 Aug 2017 23:44

So from this photo getting access to the bottom bearing does not seem to obvious to me.
Attachments
image.jpg
This the the motor
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 05 Aug 2017 23:48

If you are familiar with this motor, the plate with 4 holes in it rotates as well, I have cleaned an lubricated the outer rim as well as used oil, hopefully not to much on the top bearing via the shaft as well.
Attachments
image.jpg
Top of motor
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Coffee Phil » 06 Aug 2017 17:01

Hi Captgogo,

The motor shaft should spin freely. As musicmm said the bottom bearing may be gummed up.

The approach Which I would take is to grind off the peened spots retaining the bottom plate with the plan of securing the plate with J&B weld after the cleaning and lubing is complete.

Remove the bottom plate then push the rotor out by pressing on the top shaft. Keep track of all the thrust washers which you may find so they can be returned to their original position.

After the rotor is removed clean both the top and bottom bearings and any oil wicks with throttle body cleaner. After they dry saturate the wicks with sewing machine oil and reassemble the motor. Clean the surfaces where you are to apply the J&B weld. Retain the bottom cover with a couple of C-clamps. Verify that the rotor spins freely then apply the J&B weld and allow to cure.

There is a capacitor on the power supply board (C1) which is the motor run phase capacitor. If freeing up the motor doesn't restore operation verify that the capacitor is good. If it is shorted the motor will not run.

If all else fails you might contact these folks for a replacement motor: http://organdonorparts.com/Pioneer_c13.htm

If they have a motor for a decent price fine, but if it gets north of ~ $100 I would recommend considering a DC conversion from these folks: http://www.esotericsound.com/index2.htm

An AC hysteresis synchronous motor is a fine quiet motor and has speed accuracy, however with a high speed motor such as you have the belt is critical to platter speed accuracy.
When the manufacturers were supporting these machines this was no problem. Now getting the correct belt is often a real hassle. The servo controlled DC motor offers adjustable speed so any flat belt of the correct length will be suitable.

Hope my thoughts are useful.

Phil


Captgogo wrote:So from this photo getting access to the bottom bearing does not seem to obvious to me.
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 06 Aug 2017 22:48

Hi Phil,
Thank you for your suggestions, just want to be sure I understood what you are saying.
The bottom plate is part of the rotor, and it turns, I have to say, I am no expert, but it does surprise me that this is the case, there alone is a source of resistance, though I have oiled at this point, it is metal on metal and very dependent on perfect alignment.
So if you are saying welding the bottom plate, then I assume you have missed this point. If you are suggesting to keep the rotating plate in place sung welding technique to replace the retainers that we ground off, then I would certainly not be confident of doing this and ensuring it could move freely.
I had checked the voltages going to the motor, they seemed with in the spec, so do not suspect the Capacitor.
I have not been able to find an AC motor replacement, though your suggestion for a DC motor could be the best choice, though from what I recall they are not cheap.
I would be keen to further understand if there is any other way to take this motor apart considering my point around the rotating base plate.
Thanks
George
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby musicmn » 06 Aug 2017 23:31

Hi George, I could be wrong but I do not believe that the bottom plate is suppose to turn with the rotor. There is a brass bushing in the center of the plate it's there for the rotor shaft to turn in. From your pictures the way the bottom plate is attached to the motor with just those bent in tabs the rotor will never turn easily. The bottom plate is probably turning because the rotor is stuck in the brass bushing. Try heating the brass bushing, use a large soldering gun if you have one. If you don't have a large soldering gun then use a heat gun but try to put the heat only on the brass bushing. As you heat the bushing turn the rotor shaft only. You might have to stick a pair of needle nose pliers in the holes on the bottom plate to hold the plate still while you just turn the rotor shaft. Put the pulley back on the rotor shaft this will make it easier to turn the rotor. Hopefully this will free up the rotor so it can turn in the bushing. I would think that if the bottom plate were designed to turn with the rotor. The rotor shaft would extend through the bushing and the bottom plate, then there would be another bearing for the rotor shaft to spin in. :?:
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Copperhead » 07 Aug 2017 00:02

musicmn wrote: I would think that if the bottom plate were designed to turn with the rotor. The rotor shaft would extend through the bushing and the bottom plate, then there would be another bearing for the rotor shaft to spin in. :?:


You are right, it is not meant to move with the shaft. The 4 small tabs on the outer casings can probably be bent back and the plate removed without the need to grind anything off.
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 07 Aug 2017 05:08

Thank you both Copperhead and musicmn, agree, I did find it a little strange that if it was designed to move.
When I get a chance I will try you solutions, firstly to see if I can get it to move without the bottom plate moving.
The to try and remove the bottom plate to get to the bottom bearing.
Thanks once again
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 07 Aug 2017 09:59

Ok, you were both right, I was able to get the motor apart, and I clean the brass bearing bush both in the bottom and top and place oil on both. I was careful not to mess up the order of the felt washers etc. I had it moving freely. Applied power to it and unfortunately it still initially did not turn. I had to fiddle a bit and have it on its side then with some Help turned. The issue is as soon as I turn it up right, as it would be if it was mount on the turntable it stops. There seems to be to much vertical play so that it gets out of alignment and stalls.
I did not mis- place any bits and I re crimped the base plate in a very similar position as before.
So now am seek some Help on how I can get alignment locked in, as it does not take much stall it.
If I turn it upside down, it is more likely to run.
I feel the rotor need to be raised so the bottom spindle does not land hard up against the clear bottom surface.
Not sure if I should have added grease to that bottom bearing area, but do not thing even with a thick layer at the bottom it would provide the ideal height for alignment.
Suggestions would be welcome, seem so close to get it right.
Thanks
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Coffee Phil » 07 Aug 2017 13:43

Hi George,

J&B weld is a fairly strong steel loaded epoxy. I suggested using it rather than attempting to re-peen the metal to retain the bottom cover. If you can re-peen the case without distorting it, that should be acceptable as well. here is a link to J&B weld: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVj2OVYhZ.Q0A46wPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=J%26B+weld&fr=yhs-elm-001&hspart=elm&hsimp=yhs-001

If the rotor turns freely with the motor upright, check that the steel ring of the rotor is aligned with the core of the stator. There may have been a thrust bushing which wore away. You may have to stack washers to align the rotor ring with the stator laminations.

Phil



Coffee Phil wrote:Hi Captgogo,

The motor shaft should spin freely. As musicmm said the bottom bearing may be gummed up.

The approach Which I would take is to grind off the peened spots retaining the bottom plate with the plan of securing the plate with J&B weld after the cleaning and lubing is complete.

Remove the bottom plate then push the rotor out by pressing on the top shaft. Keep track of all the thrust washers which you may find so they can be returned to their original position.

After the rotor is removed clean both the top and bottom bearings and any oil wicks with throttle body cleaner. After they dry saturate the wicks with sewing machine oil and reassemble the motor. Clean the surfaces where you are to apply the J&B weld. Retain the bottom cover with a couple of C-clamps. Verify that the rotor spins freely then apply the J&B weld and allow to cure.

There is a capacitor on the power supply board (C1) which is the motor run phase capacitor. If freeing up the motor doesn't restore operation verify that the capacitor is good. If it is shorted the motor will not run.

If all else fails you might contact these folks for a replacement motor: http://organdonorparts.com/Pioneer_c13.htm

If they have a motor for a decent price fine, but if it gets north of ~ $100 I would recommend considering a DC conversion from these folks: http://www.esotericsound.com/index2.htm

An AC hysteresis synchronous motor is a fine quiet motor and has speed accuracy, however with a high speed motor such as you have the belt is critical to platter speed accuracy.
When the manufacturers were supporting these machines this was no problem. Now getting the correct belt is often a real hassle. The servo controlled DC motor offers adjustable speed so any flat belt of the correct length will be suitable.

Hope my thoughts are useful.

Phil


Captgogo wrote:So from this photo getting access to the bottom bearing does not seem to obvious to me.
Coffee Phil
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 07 Aug 2017 22:43

Thanks Phil
I have come to the same conclusion, that I maybe able to use some a felt washes or two from my fishing reel drag washers. Even though I did re-preen as a temporary solution to see if it could get it turning when powered.
Once I get the right alignment with stator laminations using additional washes, I will use some epoxy, I had not heard of J&B weld, so thanks for the link.
Thanks George
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Copperhead » 08 Aug 2017 00:39

Captgogo wrote:Thanks Phil
I have come to the same conclusion, that I maybe able to use some a felt washes or two from my fishing reel drag washers. Even though I did re-preen as a temporary solution to see if it could get it turning when powered.
Once I get the right alignment with stator laminations using additional washes, I will use some epoxy, I had not heard of J&B weld, so thanks for the link.
Thanks George


Don't take the reel apart, yet. You are looking for PTFE type material, not felt.
The only Sony motor like yours I have ever seen had a removable thrust pad. This was accessed by unscrewing a white cap in the centre of the motor.
The small circle you see in the part you removed will have had something the spindle rotated on. PTFE or POM might work well there.
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Re: Sony PS-5100 Motor Problem

Postby Captgogo » 08 Aug 2017 01:50

I am not sure if of any other washers, but my motor, at the base spindle has in this order, a small black washer, a slightly clear large plastic washer, a similar size black soft washer, another clear washer and another small black washer.
I might have to include a photo of the motor apart with the relevant parts to see if I can get the right solution.
Unfortunately I had some spare felt washers and put one in cover with oil, the motor was better aligned less vertical movement and I could get it to run without stalling even if I moved it from side to side. Only problem is that it would not start on its own, it needed some Help to get going. I let it run for about an hour to have everything settle in, notice it was hot to touch after that and still would not start on its own.
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