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Expectations

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Expectations

Postby cec ba 600 » 20 Apr 2017 01:06

G'day everyone.
Stupid question time, I've only recently gotten back into vinyl in the last 12months after my daughter out of the blue bought me for fathersday a beautiful CEC BA600. It came with a box of old LP's, which all got playtime! Since then Ive aquired what I think to my ears, a fairly reasonable set-up. Nothing to extravagant, An NAD 3220PE Amplifier, Wharfedale Diamond 220 Boolshelf, Audio Technica AT-LP120 with a Ortofon 2m RED Cartridge running the onboard pre-amp to compare my Hitachi PS-38 in as close to mint as ive seen for a 1979 TT. It was my Parents back in the day. During various listening sessions over the past few months, fiddling as we do, swapping carts on different TT's, I also own a NAD 5220 Belt driven TT running a AT 95ex Cart, the question is this finally. Rumble, surface noise in general, how much is acceptable? This alone is quite ambiguous I know, but I know that its not going to be absolute silence between tracks, but even after dropping the needle for the first time on the LP120, i was thinking that i should be quieter that the older TT's? I clean my LP's using mainly the Spin Clean system, DIY Vacuum set-up. Anti statis brush before each play for good measure. Not pops or clicks are not really evident on most of my LP's but surface noise enough to bother me. Are my expectations too much? Im becoming slightly OCD to the cleanliness of room, equipment and LP's!!!
Can my NAD amp be adding noise?? If I swap the AT 120 LP to Phono and use the NAD phono its just as noisy. I whatch alot of videos on the internet of people playing LP's on some expensive and not so expensive equipment, and they all seem to be alot quieter. Im not saying it obtrusive to the overall sound, but in quiet passages its there!!
How much is to much??? Or am I worried about nothing and its part of the experience??
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Re: EXPECTATIONS.

Postby AudioSoul » 20 Apr 2017 01:12

If you can hear it, it is to much....
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Re: EXPECTATIONS.

Postby cec ba 600 » 20 Apr 2017 01:36

This is the set-up.
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Re: EXPECTATIONS.

Postby macnoob » 20 Apr 2017 01:48

Different LPs will have different amounts of surface noise right from new, and then how they are treated over the years makes a big difference too. Old worn out vinyl = super noisy.
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Re: EXPECTATIONS.

Postby Alec124c41 » 20 Apr 2017 01:51

Your old CEC may be better built than the newer AT120.
The quality of the bearings for both the motor and platter, as applicable, is a main factor in reducing rumble.

Cheers,
Alec
Keep them spinning.
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Re: EXPECTATIONS.

Postby cec ba 600 » 20 Apr 2017 02:08

Can you tell me then, when you stand between your speakers to drop the stylus, as soon it makes contact, are you able to hear a "out of phase" type of noise, hum-hiss? As soon as the music starts, even quite passages ei: Miles Davis "so what" It disappears!!
I know all my connections are correct, speakers, amp phono from TT and Cart wires.
Does anyone else hear this?? Not the CEC in comparison Alec either, both the Hitachi and NAD 5230?
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Re: EXPECTATIONS.

Postby Alec124c41 » 20 Apr 2017 04:58

Lead-in and spacer grooves vary a lot. Some records have some white noise, although the actual tracks are fine. Other records are almost dead quiet.
You have good taste in music.

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Alec
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Re: Expectations

Postby Schtick » 20 Apr 2017 09:51

The great philosopher Homer Simpson once said that trying is the first step towards failure. It´s the same with expectations. The are the first step towards disappointment.
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Re: Expectations

Postby Vinylfreak86 » 20 Apr 2017 10:33

I own Reloop RP-2000, which is made by the same manufacturer as AT-LP120 and also made on the same basis. Mine is quiet enough and I cannot complain. To expect that new mass produced turntables would be more quiet than those from 30+ years ago is not realistic, because this technology didn`t change even an inch. Everything is the same like it was, only materials invested can be more cheap today than back in the days.
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Re: Expectations

Postby backtotheblack » 20 Apr 2017 13:49

Vinylfreak86 wrote:I own Reloop RP-2000, which is made by the same manufacturer as AT-LP120 and also made on the same basis. Mine is quiet enough and I cannot complain. To expect that new mass produced turntables would be more quiet than those from 30+ years ago is not realistic, because this technology didn`t change even an inch. Everything is the same like it was, only materials invested can be more cheap today than back in the days.

you are right, the basic mechanics of a turntable have not changed but the advancement of tools for designing them have. the whole TT design can be drawn up in CAD and manipulated without having to build prototypes first. once the design has been finalised it can then be split up into its individual components and sent off for machining and with the advancements in automated tooling things are made to much higher tolerance. it matters not what materials are used it matters how they interact with each other in the finished design. a TT does not need to be heavy to sound good it just needs to made with the correct materials.
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Re: Expectations

Postby Vinylfreak86 » 20 Apr 2017 20:32

backtotheblack wrote:hanics of a turntable have not changed but the advancement of tools for designing them have. the whole TT design can be drawn up in CAD and manipulated without having to build prototypes first.


Sometimes I watch old Tom&Jerry cartoons from 50`s and 60`s, they were drawn by hand and are much more original and funny like modern computer animated cartoons. Sometimes I look at the residential skyscrapers from 70`s and they are much more rich in details and sometimes even more futuristic like new ones. And they were also designed by hand on a paper. I think that computer has killed human imagination in many cases.
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Re: Expectations

Postby Sunwire » 20 Apr 2017 22:59

I would not expect the AT120 turntable to be less noisy than the older turntables.

One test that might be interesting:
Start a record playing, then turn off the power to the turntable, so the needle stays in the groove, but the record is not turning.
How much noise do you hear now?
Whatever noise you hear is from your electronics (you asked about noise added by the amp).

With a record turning or not turning, rumble and hum and hiss should be too quiet to hear, unless the volume is turned up really loud.
But, except at very low volume settings, you will usually hear some groove noise once a record is turning. With older records, recorded on analog tape, you may hear some tape hiss when the record is turning, if the volume is turned up loud.
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Re: Expectations

Postby Sterling1 » 21 Apr 2017 01:06

OP,
I like to contrast and compare my LP's to the same material stored on CD's. One thing that stands out is LP's sometimes crackle and pop, even when cleaned and brushed. These distractions undermine my pleasure with the music, so, for the most part, I usually just use my turntable to digitize the music which I do not have on SACD or CD. Now, I do have a few LP's that are free of noise even when played at a volume that could make my ears bleed; but, these LP's are an exception. And, although I have not had the kind of problem with noise you have alluded to, I do understand your frustration. If it is a distraction you can not live with, just move on from it, that's to say, don't force yourself to get pleasure from the medium, it futile. After all, there's no requirement for a turntable to enjoy music today, there are plenty of other affordable mediums which will get you great pleasure from your music.
Sony PS-4750 TT with Shure V15V-MR & M97xE carts, Sony TA-E9000ES pre/pro, TA-P9000ES analog multi-channel preamp, Sony TA-N9000ES 5 channel power amp & TA-N80ES stereo power amp,JBL L100t3 main stereo speakers, B380 subwoofer,Sony TC-K950ES cassette recorder (2) PCM-7010F DAT recorders
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Re: Expectations

Postby Vinylfreak86 » 21 Apr 2017 13:04

To advise someone to get rid of turntable and records and use digital formats is like to advise a man not to have a woman and use online sex instead.
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Re: Expectations

Postby Sterling1 » 21 Apr 2017 15:28

Vinylfreak86 wrote:To advise someone to get rid of turntable and records and use digital formats is like to advise a man not to have a woman and use online sex instead.


Who advised "someone to get rid of turntable and records"? But, here's the reality, if it does not satisfy, then, moving on or exploring media which do not regularly exhibit the sort of deficiencies the OP noted might be the sane thing to do. After all, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, is it not? My explorations so far reveal 24/96 downloads seem to get me "into" the music more than alternative mediums and formats.
OP,
I have a AT-120USB turntable and I have a 43 year old Sony, neither produces any distractions to the music. The newer turntable has a few features not found on the Sony, which I find very convenient.
Sony PS-4750 TT with Shure V15V-MR & M97xE carts, Sony TA-E9000ES pre/pro, TA-P9000ES analog multi-channel preamp, Sony TA-N9000ES 5 channel power amp & TA-N80ES stereo power amp,JBL L100t3 main stereo speakers, B380 subwoofer,Sony TC-K950ES cassette recorder (2) PCM-7010F DAT recorders
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