Levitating Turntable

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by Guest » 15 Oct 2016 01:58

Paraneer wrote:
wrote:Let's speculate...
A Pioneer PL-12 on CL = $20
OR
A Dual 12xx on CL = maybe $40.
Needs a bit of work.
A shop would charge $80-150.
End result - same basic cost, much better quality.

No particleboard platter!
No plastic bearings!
:shock:
True, but you'll also get a warranty when buying new. And supporting someone who has a job here in the USA if it happens to be a U-Turn.

And your example of a PL-12 or a Dual assumes that one can find those TT's for $20-$40. Good luck with that.

Most likely they are going to cost more, even on CL. And by the time you add the shop cost of $80-$150, you have exceeded the units value. Fully functioning PL-12's are selling for $100-$150 on EBAY. That's what I mean by vintage being cost ineffective if one cannot do the work themselves.

I have no agenda and certainly don't repair vintage audio equipment for a living or own a shop selling new gear. Do you? I just think that potential buyers should be fully informed of all the pros and cons before spending their hard earned cash.

Vintage is fine if your technically inclined. But if you have to take it to a shop, you may want to consider new too.
Yes, I run a shop dealing in functioning/serviced vintage equipment of various types.
And yes, I offer a warranty with everything.
Costs are reasonable as well - because everything performs "like new", as well as having a solid reputation for quality.

Vintage is in big demand, I've seen it continuously increase the past decade.
People are digging out their old stuff, passing it on, and enjoying it again.
The rise of "new" companies are obviously trying to capitolize on this fact, but their efforts are focused on similarly "new" technologies, because that's what gains them the best profit margins. (3D printing, etc.)
Good business sense, perhaps, but at the expense of quality that they no longer want to indulge in.
The same goes for some of the Big Companies these days - cheapening, as opposed to putting in durablity.
Washing machines with co-polymer gears in their transmissions - god forbid someone overloads the machine - co-polymer (plastic) cannot possibly hold up like tempered steel gearing.
Plasisize it to death, save a few bucks, and ship it.
Pure Garbage.
Go read reviews... Speed Queen seems to be the only one still using steel where it counts.
The current Samsung phone/washer dramas - just a recent headline, they've been dealing with YEARS of class-action suits for their crummy flat screen tvs.
Pure Garbage - Google some reviews or their lawsuits.
Trust me,as a servicer, I can peek into these garbage cans resembling tv sets - the unwary customer can't see the cheapness they've bought.
But... it's new "technology" you say?
That's why I hear of maybe 3 years use all the time, from pissed off customers.
The DLP sets have been crapping out for a while now.. some quality, huh?
The newer LED sets? - driven to burnout after 3 years - why? - to impress the buyer with it's Super Bright picture.

It's the current mentality forced upon the public - buy the junk, don't complain much, companies are laughing behind your back while they fill their pockets with your money..

I refuse to buy a bare-bones turntable that embraces cost-cutting, and plastic bearings, poorly mounted motors, and claims of American Pride.
That's not American as it once was.
I'd sooner buy a quality vintage product or service it, should the need arise.
And the money spent would certainly be worth it.

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by Paraneer » 15 Oct 2016 02:48

wrote:Yes, I run a shop dealing in functioning/serviced vintage equipment of various types.
And yes, I offer a warranty with everything.
Costs are reasonable as well - because everything performs "like new", as well as having a solid reputation for quality.
Ahh, an agenda. I kind of thought so.
Vintage is in big demand, I've seen it continuously increase the past decade.
And that's exactly why your not going to find a PL-12 for $20 anymore. Or if you do, it may take a few years of looking at CL everyday or going to garage sales to find one at this price. Rare you will find one at a thrift store - they have learned to separate the good stuff and put it on auction over the internet.
Good business sense, perhaps, but at the expense of quality that they no longer want to indulge in.
Again, were talking about a U-Turn Orbit that costs a $179! What do you expect for that kind of dough? If it was built like a PL-12, it would cost a lot more than this. And that's not the market U-Turn is aiming at.

But for what it does and how it sounds, its a great TT for the first time buyer who wants to get into vinyl. But may not stick with it. So in this regard, its represents a good value in todays market. So don't slam a product that was never intended to compete with a heavy, precision built TT from yesterday. If it was, the newcomers could never afford one.
I refuse to buy a bare-bones turntable that embraces cost-cutting, and plastic bearings, poorly mounted motors, and claims of American Pride.
That's not American as it once was.
I'd sooner buy a quality vintage product or service it, should the need arise.
And the money spent would certainly be worth it.
But what is still American is that you don't have to. No one forces you to. And you still get the right to express your opinion on any product that doesn't meet your approval like a U-Turn through the anonymity of the internet. So express your opinion, yes but don't slam it. That's not cool at all.

So chill and enjoy whatever TT it is that you use.

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by vinyl master » 15 Oct 2016 07:01

Paraneer wrote:
wrote:Yes, I run a shop dealing in functioning/serviced vintage equipment of various types.
And yes, I offer a warranty with everything.
Costs are reasonable as well - because everything performs "like new", as well as having a solid reputation for quality.
Ahh, an agenda. I kind of thought so.
Vintage is in big demand, I've seen it continuously increase the past decade.
And that's exactly why your not going to find a PL-12 for $20 anymore. Or if you do, it may take a few years of looking at CL everyday or going to garage sales to find one at this price. Rare you will find one at a thrift store - they have learned to separate the good stuff and put it on auction over the internet.
Good business sense, perhaps, but at the expense of quality that they no longer want to indulge in.
Again, were talking about a U-Turn Orbit that costs a $179! What do you expect for that kind of dough? If it was built like a PL-12, it would cost a lot more than this. And that's not the market U-Turn is aiming at.

But for what it does and how it sounds, its a great TT for the first time buyer who wants to get into vinyl. But may not stick with it. So in this regard, its represents a good value in todays market. So don't slam a product that was never intended to compete with a heavy, precision built TT from yesterday. If it was, the newcomers could never afford one.
I refuse to buy a bare-bones turntable that embraces cost-cutting, and plastic bearings, poorly mounted motors, and claims of American Pride.
That's not American as it once was.
I'd sooner buy a quality vintage product or service it, should the need arise.
And the money spent would certainly be worth it.
But what is still American is that you don't have to. No one forces you to. And you still get the right to express your opinion on any product that doesn't meet your approval like a U-Turn through the anonymity of the internet. So express your opinion, yes but don't slam it. That's not cool at all.

So chill and enjoy whatever TT it is that you use.
Yes, I'm also a vintage lover...Maybe I got lucky...My Dual 1226 only cost me $45 at the antique shop...I was willing to haggle for it, and not accept the price as was offered...Yes, it needed work...The same goes for my Pioneer PL-12D II that I got for $50...If I could have gotten it for $20, I would have, but $50 was a fair price, and you definitely don't see them going for that price often...You just have to pounce when you see the right pieces...And that's what I've done...$20 for one, and you're almost dreaming nowadays! :lol:

My Elac and Sansui were both $25.00 each, so I never say it CAN'T be done, but you have to be quick, and be able to spot quality...And sometimes, for that price, you have no choice but to pick up something that looks a little rough on the surface and needs a good dusting...But, I dig that sort of thing...

Of course (and I hate to say it, people! :( ), we are living in Crosley World, whether we like it or not...They are pretty much forcing them down everyone's throats with their advertising and presence everywhere...And many don't realize that they can get a better deal on CL...Still, if the shops are going to sell "new" turntables, I'd rather they be selling U-Turns rather than Crosleys, Ions, Jensens, Innovate Technologies, Pyles, and a bunch of other no-name Chinese copycats...At least, the U-Turns will accept different cartridges, and have a counterweight...More than can be said about the other POS machines I just mentioned...And if someone wants to get into vinyl, and doesn't want to spend a ton of money off the bat on a Rega or Music Hall, the U-Turn looks like an affordable option for someone wanting a "plug-and-play" "new" turntable...Plus, I see a lot of anti-Crosley videos...Show me ONE unbiased anti-U-Turn video! :-k

I like to advocate vintage, too...Nothing wrong with it...I love it! And you get a lot of "bang for your buck" with vintage, too, if that's your style...But, I will acknowledge that there are some companies making headroads in the hi-fi arena with some quality new products...When I see a company continually improving their product like U-Turn does, I take that as a good sign! The important thing is being able to have options here...

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by ammarmariti » 16 Oct 2016 16:37

Okay, so maybe we can get back to the levitating turntable now?

Finger Painter

Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by Finger Painter » 16 Oct 2016 18:07

One thing which bothers me about this turntable is that as soon as the arm is placed on the record the platter will drop on the same side. I cannot see how it will be capable of remaining level. Not good.

Ideally it will need some form of bearing and sleeve at least so as to remain vertically and horizontally in the same plane. The mag lev can take care of the vertical (and hence remove any thrust bearing requirements) provided there is rigidity in the lateral movement which will also serve to resist any sagging to one side. This is the approach taken by most magnetically levitated turntables.

End result.....it would be nothing new

It seems a nice idea on the design board, but I imagine pretty useless as a record playback tool. I get the feeling they have never made a working example and everything exists only in something like AutoCAD.

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by BMRR » 16 Oct 2016 18:17

Finger Painter wrote:Ideally it will need some form of bearing and sleeve at least so as to remain vertically and horizontally in the same plane.
Technics' implementation of direct drive is sort of maglev-ish when viewed in this light. The magnets in the turntable motor turn the magnets in the platter. The bearing serves only to keep the platter stable in the horizontal and vertical planes.

Finger Painter

Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by Finger Painter » 16 Oct 2016 18:57

The bearing serves only to keep the platter stable in the horizontal and vertical planes.
Which I guess I was trying to say. Take this away and the platter is free to be affected by other outside sources. The arm being one. Be interesting to see how the 'clampers' would get around this. #-o

I don't think Technics are alone in their drive method as I had a Pioneer many moons back which used very much the same principal.

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by H. callahan » 17 Oct 2016 03:21

Technics' implementation of direct drive is sort of maglev-ish when viewed in this light. The magnets in the turntable motor turn the magnets in the platter. The bearing serves only to keep the platter stable in the horizontal and vertical planes.
Not really. A DD-motor has magnets to avoide "moving parts". On a belt driven tt you have the plattern, which has to move of course also on a DD-tt, but then you have the belt and a motor which turns the belt. This motor creates vibrations because it turns, because it has "moving parts". With a DD-motor you attach permantent magnets on the downside of the plattern (well not acutally on the downside of the plattern, but the plattern is put on a disk which has perm. magn. on its downside) and below this perm. magn. you put some elektromagnets. These pulse a magnetic field which does turn the permanent magnets on the downside of the plattern - therefore the only "moving part" is the plattern itself, but there is no "motor" which turns anything.
Therefore the only rumble which can be created is created by the plattern bearing, and those usually are high grade to create lowest rumble possible - which is the reason why DD-tts usually have a rumble of -75DB or even less (and wow + flutter can be controlled better by the magnetic field of the elektromagnets, therefore wow + flutter usually is 0.05% or less).
...

The permanent magnets on the downside of the plattern aren´t trying to levitate the plattern, but they do pull the plattern downwards.
...

Now there have been some (expensive) tts which have a levitating plattern, but this plattern levitates only 2 or 3mm above a turning disk, which has some permanent magnets, too.
This probably was done to decouple the actual plattern from the rumble the turning disk underneath produces - but, as someone allerady mentioned, the mangetic field probably will transfer vibrations to the plattern.

On these tt with a levitating plattern, about 2mm in the air, they usually use heavy platterns (maybee 20-40 pounds) so they have to use a lot of strong permanent magnets, so the magnetic field is powerfull enough to keep the heavy plattern in place. They do so on purpose because a stronger magnetic field is better at holding the plattern in place, so the plattern wont go down a bit by the weight of the cartridge (the VTF actually) or move slightly out of the horizontal plane.

The problem with this levitating tt here is that they´re constructing it to reach maximum levitating effect - which means they´ll probably try to make the plattern as light as possible, so it will levitate the most.
Therefore the magnetic field won´t be as powerfull as with a 20-pound-plattern, which means it won´t be able to hold the plattern in place as fixed as it would if the plattern was a 20-pound one.

And this means that the vibrations, occuring during playback, will make the plattern vibrate (not much of course, but enough to degrade playback) and there is no bearing to keep it in place.
That´s what i meant by saying "some DIYers glue a piece of wood between the plattern-bearing and tonearm-suspension". There should be no relaitve movement between plattern-bearing and tonearm-suspension, because it degrades tracking - and this levitating tt should have a lot of relative movement between these two points.

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by H. callahan » 17 Oct 2016 03:42

Another question would be how strong the electric magnetic field of this levitating tt would be. Even a light plattern does around 2 pounds + some permanent magnets for maximum levitating effect might do 3 pounds.
Lift it about 2 inches into the air will need some strong mangetic field, created by elekrtomagnets and pulsed of course, because the plattern has to turn.
Relatively strong, pulsing mangetic fields might interfere with heart pacemakers, fry the electronics in your writswatch or mobile phone, erase tapes near your tt or even interfere with speakers being too close to the tt.

So i´m seeing some "fun" here too....

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by fscl » 17 Oct 2016 04:57

FWIW, the early bird categories of support are sold out.... :shock:

Still we're talking about a $780 turntable..... :shock: :shock: levitating or conventional.... :shock:

Fred

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by daniele_g » 17 Oct 2016 13:52

H. callahan wrote:Relatively strong, pulsing mangetic fields might interfere with heart pacemakers, fry the electronics in your writswatch or mobile phone, erase tapes near your tt or even interfere with speakers being too close to the tt.

So i´m seeing some "fun" here too....
Am I wrong if I think that the cartridge itself may be negatively influenced by the magnetic field ?

And then agauin, is that a concern with other turntables which have other mag-lev parts ?
E.g. I'm thinking of the foot of Project Xtension Evo (or other TTs)

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by BMRR » 17 Oct 2016 14:04

You can place this next to your levitating turntable (assuming that they don't interfere with each other and/or create a rift in the space-time continuum LOL)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017IGWE0C


:lol:

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by H. callahan » 18 Oct 2016 04:01

Am I wrong if I think that the cartridge itself may be negatively influenced by the magnetic field ?
No, you´re right. This allready is a problem with DD-tts, on some cartridges there is hum induced into the cartridge. It seems like this can be solved by simply groundig the tt to the amp - in my case the hum disappeared - but on DD-tts they usually try to shield the mangetic field, to some extend at least to reduce things like these.
On this levitating tt here shielding would harm the levitating effect, either the plattern wouldn´t levitate any more or you just couldn´t see it levitating, if you try to shield the magnetic field - therefore it has to be open and will be more powerfull than on a DD-tt. Because the mangetic field on a DD-tt only has to make the plattern turn, but not levitate - which indicates that the magn. field of this levitating tt not only will be open, but also stronger than in comparison to a DD-tt.
If hum induced into the cartridge can be avoided by just grounding this levitating-tt, as it seems to work with DD-tts, is the question, because its magnetic field might be different from a DD-tt.
Maybee you don´t have to use a tracking force any more, because metal parts in the cartridge are attracted by the (elektro)mangetic field or to the permanent magnets on the downside of the plattern - maybee you´ll even need a negative tracking force to avoid the cartridge making contact to the record, because the magnets pull it downwards.

Will be interseting to see if/how this will work.
You can place this next to your levitating turntable
"Lev´ me up, Scotty!"

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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by james73_2008 » 05 Aug 2017 19:25


Trio KD1033
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Re: Levitating Turntable

Post by Trio KD1033 » 05 Aug 2017 21:28

When you see it in operation it looks pretty impressive, but my main bugbear with it, is that the platter can bounce and move independently of the arm/cartridge allowing for all sorts of low frequency signals to be generated. With a conventional deck the two are locked together, and in the case of a sprung suspension, they (arm/cart & platter) all move as one.

Andy

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