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hardware declicker?

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hardware declicker?

Postby paulverizzo » 02 May 2016 03:50

I remember many years ago when there were hardware based declickers. Nirvana! As I now look about for a noise final solution, I see lots of computer based methods, but they don't appeal to me.

I would like to have a "black box" to use or not as I would like, in the preamp out/in stream.

Any suggestions? I've looked on eBay and Amazon. Preferably inexpensive.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby JoeE SP9 » 02 May 2016 13:32

They used to be known as "tick and pop machines". There are two that I know of. They are the KLH/Burwen 7000/a (Transient Noise Eliminator) and the SAE 5000/A (Impulse Noise Reduction). There may be others. The KLH/Burwen and SAE devices are not all that uncommon. They are both line level devices designed to be connected to a tape monitor loop. Both have a tape monitor switch to allow tape source monitoring.

Someone may suggest something from DBX. AFAIK DBX never made a device specifically for the removal of ticks and pops.

FWIW: I have a SAE5000A although I no longer use it.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby paulverizzo » 02 May 2016 21:38

Thanks. Guess I'll look for them.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby nat » 02 May 2016 23:20

Garrard also sold one. I think it may actually have preceded the others to the market, which suggests a more vigorous research and development wing at Garrard than their turntables might have suggested.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby Phono-lover » 03 May 2016 23:10

The Garrard model had a built in pre-amplifier so the turntable plugged directly into it. The SAE-5000 would be inserted into the tape monitor loop of the amplifier. Both had defeat buttons so you could hear the difference. I have both of them. Neither of them were 'transparent' and the sound suffered from compression and loss of signal quality. It was easy to hear the loss when the insert button was pressed. It has so much circuitry to distort the signal. The way it worked by putting the signal through a delay line and when a spike of noise came along it had time to apply an opposite signal that muted the click. I would not recommend them although the Garrard model is very nicely built. Clean records are a better investment.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby paulverizzo » 03 May 2016 23:18

Thanks for the information Phono-lover. I've long assumed that they worked by setting an amplitude threshhold at which time the entire audio stream gets cut out for that thousandth (or whatever) second. You could do this, I think, with an adjustable Zener diode circuit pretty easily.

I can "see" that while while either way could reduce clicks satisfactorily to zero, if they are coming fast and furious, they would degrade the sound. Of course, clicks do to, so it's six of one and half dozen of the other, I guess.

Maybe both systems were used, depending on the manufacturer. Or, I could be having drug flashbacks........
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby mmarston » 04 May 2016 00:11

paulverizzo wrote:Thanks for the information Phono-lover. I've long assumed that they worked by setting an amplitude threshhold at which time the entire audio stream gets cut out for that thousandth (or whatever) second. You could do this, I think, with an adjustable Zener diode circuit pretty easily.

I can "see" that while while either way could reduce clicks satisfactorily to zero, if they are coming fast and furious, they would degrade the sound. Of course, clicks do to, so it's six of one and half dozen of the other, I guess.

Maybe both systems were used, depending on the manufacturer. Or, I could be having drug flashbacks........


I have an SAE5000 and haven't used it in a long time. It does degrade the sound, unacceptably for the most part. I mostly used it for copying noisy discs to cassette as the quality loss was similar.

My recollection is that I read somewhere it looks at the "falling" edge of sharp transients for detection. The reasoning being that a rim shot or handclap might have the same quick rise time as a noise impulse, but that those sounds usually have a reverberant "tail" that does not decay instantly like the clicks do. It was also said that it "substituted a brief interval of the undelayed sound" which really doesn't sound right to me, as that would cause more clicks unless the switch was made where the signal crosses zero. In fact, using an oscilloscope, I can see that it merely mutes its output for a millisecond or two (sometimes one channel, sometimes both.) The "hole" is less noticeable than the loud pop, but for really noisy records it turns the sound into a kind of buzzy Swiss cheese.

I actually *love* being able to use the computer. Click Repair can't completely eliminate all noise, but I've made listenable copies of some very trashed garage sale records. It interpolates what the signal should have looked like based on the frequency content before and after the noise, and is much more configurable than the simple slider on the SAE. I've actually done quite a few records in sections with more or less repair to each section as needed.

I always wanted to try the Garrard, as it was rumored to sound better than the SAE, but haven't felt like actually spending money to find out. :lol:
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby paulverizzo » 04 May 2016 00:34

Thanks, mmarston. eBay has some units of both brands for sale, asking about $200. One posting has two for less money.

Maybe I'll try the computer type, just for fun. I have a beloved but long in the tooth netbook that maybe I'll try.

Anyone, any suggestion on software based filters?
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby gofar99 » 04 May 2016 02:37

+1 on the use of a computer. I copy the music at 24/192 into Audicity using a Simaudio Moon phono preamp (extremely quiet and accurate). Then using phones listen to it and "repair" the clicks. Next it goes on to an Akai reel to reel. Yes it is true that there is digital in the process...but the recording to R-R seems to smooth out any traces of it.

At one time I had a single pass noise and click reducer...don't recall what brand now but it too harmed the music so much that it was useless...thus why I no longer have it.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby LesE » 04 May 2016 07:16

I've been using a KLH TNE 7000A for a while and I would say that it is effective but more subtle than the SAE 5000. The KLH/Burwen doesn't help LP's that are in poor condition but instead tends to be most effective on ticks rather than the louder clicks and pops. This helps during quite passages as well as the gap between tracks. For the most part, I haven't noticed any audio degradation unless the threshold control is turned up too high.

A few years ago, I conducted an experiment where I ripped a track both with and without the TNE engaged. I then ran each through the Click Repair software and found that the click detections were reduced by roughly 30% for the TNE processed track.

The particular unit I own was supposedly removed from a radio station in NYC.

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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby KentT » 04 May 2016 20:39

P.S. Software declicking is demanding on a computer workstation. Not for netbooks to handle gracefully. Core i5 and 8-16 GB of RAM bare minimum.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby paulverizzo » 04 May 2016 20:54

KentT wrote:P.S. Software declicking is demanding on a computer workstation. Not for netbooks to handle gracefully. Core i5 and 8-16 GB of RAM bare minimum.


Ah, thanks. I wondered about that. Oh, well.
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby LesE » 04 May 2016 21:11

Here is a scan of an article by Julian Hirsch where he compared the SAE 5000, Burwen TNE 7000 and the Garrard MRM101. This is from Popular Electronics Nov 1978.

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https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=B65342E1B15B7B5A!409&authkey=!AON4gM768QjhG5c&ithint=file%2cpdf
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby MEFlyingV » 21 Apr 2017 16:43

Hello everyone. My name is Mark, and Google sent me to this topic when looking for a hardware declicker/depopper.

While I am a metalhead from the 80's and had a pretty decent stereo system, using such a declicker with my turntable is not the purpose of my interest. I hope all of you will find my need interesting, and perhaps some of you can give me some feedback on the potential use of the hardware declickers you discussed here. If so, I thank you in advance.

I am the guitarist for the band OVERLORDE. While we all were originally from New Jersey in the 80's, the band members are now spread out along the east coast of the USA. A few years back, we discovered a product called jamlink. Depending on the conditions, it allows up to four band members to rehearse live over the internet. This link describes how we are using it further (though we have had some lineup changes since then). https://www.musicianlink.com/long-distance-rehearsal-writing. At the time of that article, our situation worked great. But due to some changes, we now have a different mix of internet providers and locations. We are now borderline with latency. It can be fine, but making adjustments to accommodate bandwidth issue variables such as packet loss now results in us having unplayable latency issues.

Our bassist, John, is in South Carolina and has the lowest quality internet service in the band. It is cable, but not superfast nor is it super clean. He has Time Warner Roadrunner, now Spectrum, which is the worst cable provider in general. As such, he has packet loss which results in the same sort of pops and crackle as a vinyl record might have. While we can eliminate or reduce this popping by changing a setting on the jamlink, this setting results in adding enough latency to throw us off. And John has no other internet provider option that would remedy this such as FIOS (Fiber).

The popping can be really bad at times, especially between songs when we are talking. So we need to do something.

When we rehearse over jamlink, I record the session in Cubase just so we can capture any new song ideas we come up with. In the past, I have been able to use Sonnox VST plugins in Wavelab to effectively remove the pops with minimal affect on the sound when preparing mixes of song ideas after the fact.

But using a software plugin in real time would likely not work. Hence, I started looking for a hardware declicker. Preferably one that is not too expensive since each of us other than John would need to buy one. With our current situation, that would mean three of us.

The jamlink output is 1/4", but I could of course use adapters.The signal is mono but with a stereo output, and I usually pan the drums and bass hard left and right with vocals in the middle. So only the side with the bass would need to go through the hardware.

I did download the article by Julian Hirsch (my thanks to LesE for posting it) and that seems quite helpful. So what do you you all think? Do these units you have discussed here hold any possibility and if so, which one would be the best?

Thank you again.

Mark
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Re: hardware declicker?

Postby abs1 » 21 Apr 2017 17:30

LesE wrote:Here is a scan of an article by Julian Hirsch where he compared the SAE 5000, Burwen TNE 7000 and the Garrard MRM101. This is from Popular Electronics Nov 1978.

Les.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=B65342E1B15B7B5A!409&authkey=!AON4gM768QjhG5c&ithint=file%2cpdf



Julian Hirsch?

When questioned about whether or not Julian Hirsch was being paid off by the manufacturers to write nothing but praise for the products that he reviewed a respected industry source replied that Mr. Hirsch was not dishonest, he was deaf ;-)

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