Setting up Tonearm

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wills13
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Setting up Tonearm

Post by wills13 » 10 Jan 2016 05:09

Hi,
My first time here, so please be patent with me if I ask stupid questions.
I have decided that I will record some of the many LP's that I have to my computer, from where I stream via my Logitech Squeezbox Touch to my HiFi system.
I have 2 old Turntables a sound research DJ-1600B S bend Tonearm and a Yamaha P07 with straight arm.
I want to start with the cartridge setup fairly properly I have a Protractor and tonearm scale, my Yamaha lines up pretty well with the Protractor, but the S bend tonearm is a country mile out and there is no way that I could adjust that arm to line up with the protractor, it is almost 45 degrees off to the parallel grit lines.
I in some ways like the sound research although I have been told that the Yamaha is a better TT, what I like about the Sound research is I can adjust and see that the platter speed is correct, whereas the Yamaha has no control.
So after all this, my real question is how do I line up the cartridge on that S bend Tonearm.
There is also a second question, anyone familiar with the Yamaha P07 I have somehow mislaid the bar for the anti skate control, and I have made a substitute bar, I had the string with the little weight on it, but I was wondering if the height of the bar is critical to the correct function of the anti skate.

Sorry it is a long story, tried to explain as good as possible.

Cheers

Alec124c41
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by Alec124c41 » 10 Jan 2016 05:38

Using a protractor, you do not line the arm up with the grid. You line the cartridge up. Whether the arm is straight or bent is irrelevant.
The only 2 factors that count in the antiskate are the size of the weight, and how close the other end of the string is to the arm pivot. The exact height of the bar is not critical.

Cheers,
Alec

wills13
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by wills13 » 10 Jan 2016 06:26

Thanks Alec,
That was my mistake not explaining properly, I did mean lining up the cartridge and not the tonearm. But yes when putting the needle at the point the cartridge is about 45 degrees to the grid lines.
If I put the cartridge parallel to the grit the needle is about 1 inch past the point,
I don't know but could it be that the headshell is wrong to long, and that I should be using a shorter headshell.
It is as I bought it some years ago, but never used it, when I was using my TT I used to use the Yamaha.
Cheers

kaeufl
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by kaeufl » 15 Jun 2019 22:21

Hi,

I have the same problem with the DJ-1600B. Have you found a solution/reason for that?

kaeufl
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by kaeufl » 16 Jun 2019 12:14

Some additional information. I guess the turntable is not a DJ-1600b but an DJ-I 600b.
Nevertheless I also found no solution how to adjust the stylus.

Here is some data. Maybe somebody can help:

pivot to spindel: 195 mm
stylus tip overhang: 23 mm
effective tonearm length: 215mm

all values are measured by hand and therefore maybe not absolutely correct....

nat
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by nat » 17 Jun 2019 00:33

There are a variety of possible alignments (combinations of pivot to stylus distance, and the offset angle of the cartridge), the three main ones being Baerwald, Lofgren, and Stevenson. Many Japanese arms and tables are designed for the Stevenson alignment, and if you use a Baerwald protractor (which seems to be the common standard in the US), you will end up with the cartridge close the far limit of the alignment slots, and cocked signficantly in the headshell. It will play and sound fine, but it would have also played and sounded fine with the intended Stevenson alignment.
The difference in the alignments seems to be where the points of highest and lowest misalignment (hence distortion) are. There are audiophiles who claim to be able to distinguish between the alignments, and favor on over the other. I don't put myself in that category. I'm bugged by seeing a cartridge cocked in the headshell, and I worry about warp yaw (though I'm not sure I've ever head it), so I go with whatever the intended alignment was.

Sunwire
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by Sunwire » 17 Jun 2019 01:21

wills13 - what is the protractor you are using for the Sound Research turntable?
Do you have an owners manual for the Sound Research turntable? I looked online but couldn't find one.

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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by Sunwire » 17 Jun 2019 01:27

kaeufl - the effective length should be equal to the pivot to spindle length plus the overhang. So, something is not measured correctly.

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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by Sunwire » 17 Jun 2019 01:36

kaeufl and wills13 - I encourage you both to try using Conrad Hoffman's Arc Template Generator tool.
You can download the tool from here (third link from the top):
http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

There is a long thread here with lots of questions and answers about the tool.
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 19&t=16849
If you have problems or questions about the tool and how to use it, I recommend posting them there. Conrad Hoffman, who created the tool, checks the thread from time to time and answers questions if others don't answer them first.
I STRONGLY recommend you read the ReadMe.txt file that comes with the tool. And also, once you have installed the tool and started it up, click on the help button inside the tool for more guidance.

My personal recommendation would be to choose the "Typical" setting for Inner and Outer Groove Radius (the other settings are DIN and IEC). Stevenson A alignment will probably be easiest to achieve.

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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by kaeufl » 18 Jun 2019 13:14

Hi guys,

first of all thanks for the reply!!

I tried the Stevenson protractor but still no chance to align the cartridge. So I will measure everything again more precisely and print an own protractor using the Conrad Hoffman's Arc Template Generator tool.

I hope this (maybe very cheap) turntable is worth the effort :)

kaeufl
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by kaeufl » 20 Jun 2019 19:55

Done. At least I think it is ok.

I used a mm grid printed on a paper to measure the pivot to spindle distance. Then I tried several inner/outer groove radius in the Arc Template Generator to get a Loefgren Arc Templet with the overhang I also measured before. (Using the typical or DIN settings, generated again some Templets which did not match at all to my turntable.)
Having this I saw that the stylus was actually following the "stylus path". Nevertheless the cartridge was not even close to be parallel to the lines on the Arc Templet. But by twisting the cartridge as much as I can, it was finally perfectly aligned.

I don't know if this is how you should do with this turntable, but I give it a try....

Sunwire
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by Sunwire » 20 Jun 2019 22:38

From your description, it sounds like you are misusing the Arc Template Generator.
It is NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL to have any specific overhang measurement. You can change the overhang by moving the cartridge forward or back in the headshell. Use whatever overhang works.
Move the cartridge forward or back to match the arc you have created with the template generator.

You should not be adjusting the inner and outer groove radius numbers to try to make a template that matches what your arm is already doing.
The inner and outer groove radius numbers are supposed to represent the ACTUAL measurements on the records you play. If you are changing the numbers to try to make a nice curve on the template, you are just fooling yourself.
If you want to get more into it, then look through your records. Find the ones that have the music grooves that go the very closest to the label.
These will usually be the records with the longest elapsed time on that side of the record.
The longest elapsed time I've found is about 26 or 27 minutes. That's quite extreme. Most records are close to 20 minutes, I think.
But you really need to LOOK at the grooves and measure the radius.
For example, when I looked at my records, the smallest inner groove radius I found was 58.5mm, so that was the number I used for my template.
The outer groove radius doesn't change much from record to record. But measure your records and see what the number is. It's probably very close to 145 or 146 mm.
It may be easier to create a Stevenson template, rather than a Loefgren template. You probably won't have to twist the cartridge as much in the headshell or move it as far forward.

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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by kaeufl » 21 Jun 2019 08:32

Sunwire wrote:
20 Jun 2019 22:38
From your description, it sounds like you are misusing the Arc Template Generator.
It is NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL to have any specific overhang measurement. You can change the overhang by moving the cartridge forward or back in the headshell. Use whatever overhang works.
Move the cartridge forward or back to match the arc you have created with the template generator.
As also described by wills13, the overhang of the cartridge can not be changed enough to match any "standard" arc template.

I tried every template I found or I was able to create with any "normal" inner and outer groove radius but just moving the cartridge forward or back was NEVER enough. As also written by wills13, the cartridge was almost 45 degrees off to the parallel grit lines.

Generating an arc template with a stylus path matching to my setup with the cartridge in "middle position" was my only chance to get it parallel to the grit lines. Actually I don't know if this will have negative effects for the sound. Does it?

In the end I am not sure if this cheap (?) turntable is/was worth the effort :lol:

JoeE SP9
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by JoeE SP9 » 21 Jun 2019 22:56

Are you sure you're using a two point protractor properly? Your TT appears to be an OEM sourced Hanpin with a normal S shaped arm. Used properly any of the two point protractors should work.

Try following the directions alec124c41 has posted.

A 2-point protractor can be used with any arm.
With a 2-point protractor, set the stylus on the crosshairs of the outer grid, and square the cartridge to it.
Move to the inner grid, stylus on crosshairs.
If the cartridge angles toward the middle of the record, move it forward a bit, and start over.
If the cartridge angles away from the middle of the record, move it back a bit, and start over.
When the cartridge sits squarely in both grids, stylus on crosshairs, you are done.
When you have used a protractor, do not then try to adjust the cartridge to any other "overhang."

Cheers,
Alec


FWIW: When installing a new cartridge I usually start with the mounting bolts in the middle of their range in the head shell.

Sunwire
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Re: Setting up Tonearm

Post by Sunwire » 22 Jun 2019 05:12

Yes, I think it would be best to try using a two point protractor.
You are doing something wrong with the arc protractor, or else this is a very strange arm.
I looked at some photos of the sound research DJ-1600B online and it looks like an arm of normal length, and no unusual offset angle at the headshell as far as I can tell. So a two point protractor should work.
Please DO NOT CONCERN YOURSELF WITH THE OVERHANG MEASUREMENT. Seriously, this is one of the most confusing things for beginners. It doesn't matter, AT ALL.

Go to this page and look at the first two protractors under where it says:
"Generic (Universal) Protractors
Stupid Protractors"

Download both of them and see if you can get any of them to work. There are two alignments on the first one (Baerwald and Loefgren) and one on the second one (Stevenson).
I think the Stevenson one is most likely to work easily.

If it doesn't work, please take a photo from above of the headshell on top of the protractor with the stylus on the dot in the middle of the grid lines. Shoot straight down with your camera so the angle of the cartridge to the grid lines can be seen.

Unlike an arc protractor, you will have to move the protractor to get the cartridge to align with both null points. Align it with one grid, then move the protractor and the arm to put the stylus in the middle of the grid at the other null point.
Follow the instructions in the previous message, just know that you have to move the protractor when moving the stylus from one grid to the other one.

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