STD 305M main bearing question

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jives11
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by jives11 » 29 Dec 2015 13:28

Are we sure its epoxy though ? the deck is from Strathclyde so it could just be batter ?

Copperhead
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Copperhead » 29 Dec 2015 14:31

jives11 wrote:Are we sure its epoxy though ? the deck is from Strathclyde so it could just be batter ?
Great joke, pretty sure you would get a great reaction in Glasgow. Might even get a show of hands.

Alec124c41
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Alec124c41 » 29 Dec 2015 15:02

Try some acetone.
If you can take the whole bearing housing out of the plinth, it would be easier to work on it.

Cheers,
Alec

jives11
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by jives11 » 29 Dec 2015 15:22

Copperhead wrote:
jives11 wrote:Are we sure its epoxy though ? the deck is from Strathclyde so it could just be batter ?
Great joke, pretty sure you would get a great reaction in Glasgow. Might even get a show of hands.
One does one's best. Its pure jealousy mind, when you think about the legacy of great turntable designs which have come from Scotland - Ariston, Strathclyde, Dunlop and Fons

Trio KD1033
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Trio KD1033 » 29 Dec 2015 16:13

jives11 wrote:
Copperhead wrote:
jives11 wrote:Are we sure its epoxy though ? the deck is from Strathclyde so it could just be batter ?
Great joke, pretty sure you would get a great reaction in Glasgow. Might even get a show of hands.
One does one's best. Its pure jealousy mind, when you think about the legacy of great turntable designs which have come from Scotland - Ariston, Strathclyde, Dunlop and Fons
If it had been batter I would've chewed it off by now!

Just had a conversation with the last owner. He hasn't ever lifted the spindle out, so can't get a definitive answer on there being a ball or not.

Edit: He was not the first owner.

I just took this picture of the end of the spindle. Very strange wear pattern, and those circular ridges are not oil, the are part of the spindle.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1671/236 ... 0469_z.jpgspindle 291215_1 by Andy Likes Cameras, on Flickr

Andy

jives11
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by jives11 » 29 Dec 2015 18:42

perhaps those ridges are a function of how the spindle has been machined in a lathe ? i.e stepped ridges , subsequently rubbed down ?

Alec124c41
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Alec124c41 » 29 Dec 2015 18:50

The small circle in the middle of the flat is wear from the ball. the rest is irrelevant.
The previous owner apparently never oiled it.

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Alec

Trio KD1033
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Trio KD1033 » 29 Dec 2015 19:29

jives11 wrote:well if you did manage to get that sealant out you'll need a circlip tool, and I found for the Lenco ,that most sold in the UK need filing down to get the pins small enough to get in the holes. if you need to borrow a circlip tool, modified for a Lenco let me know. of course the STD may have bigger holes.
Thanks for the offer Jives. I'm quite concerned about damaging the housing if a bit of brute force is required to remove the resin. Shame I can't just buy a new part the way you can for a Rega!

Andy

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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Trio KD1033 » 29 Dec 2015 19:42

Another theory for those that haven't committed suicide yet:

Let's say that the ridges, as Jives said, are part of the machining process. The centre marks, that do appear to be concentric circles, are the only part of the tip that hasn't come into contact with other metal, so the initial lathing marks remain.

What makes me consider this theory is how freely the bearing does spin, resting on this raised dome that has a tiny hole, possibly for retaining oil?

Andy

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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by jives11 » 29 Dec 2015 21:10

I think Copperhead was right earlier. the central circles I have seen before on decks where the oil has never been replaced. Eventually a paste of old oil and ultra-fine metal filings accumulates, and despite the bearing resting on a thrust pad, which may be even plastic on some decks, you still get that distinctive wear caused by millions or rotations on an ever-so-slightly abrasive gloop. thats a good reason to use a raised ball bearing as the particles may tend to fall away from the infinitely small contact point (ideally). Do you think this deck has been run much with no ball bearing ? My current deck has exactly the same pattern, and to be honest runs fine. I think once you get the right ball and the whole thing reoiled, it will be fine

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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Trio KD1033 » 29 Dec 2015 21:46

jives11 wrote:I think Copperhead was right earlier. the central circles I have seen before on decks where the oil has never been replaced. Eventually a paste of old oil and ultra-fine metal filings accumulates, and despite the bearing resting on a thrust pad, which may be even plastic on some decks, you still get that distinctive wear caused by millions or rotations on an ever-so-slightly abrasive gloop. thats a good reason to use a raised ball bearing as the particles may tend to fall away from the infinitely small contact point (ideally). Do you think this deck has been run much with no ball bearing ? My current deck has exactly the same pattern, and to be honest runs fine. I think once you get the right ball and the whole thing reoiled, it will be fine
I believe it's been run for several years the way it is. The last owner said that he'd never lifted the spindle out, so unless I've lost the ball (I don't think so as I was very careful when first removing the spindle) then it's seen a lot of hours this way. Just to recap, the previous owner is not the first owner.

Andy

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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by fitcaz » 30 Dec 2015 16:20

STD305S owner from new. As far as I know there is a ball sealed in the bottom - it cant come out because there is a sleeve bearing at the top. It is the sleeve bearing to spindle that generates the noise not the ball spindle contact. Lack of lube will increase wear on the sleeve to the point where the spindle rocks in the sleeve. I dont know of any way to replace it if its gone that far. For me a good clean/flush with alcohol is best - with earbuds to swish around inside to clean it. Having the correct oil is a good idea which was labeled as silicone on the original. I have used sewing machine oil, but there is also turntable oil out there that has carbon to help lube the spindle. As the bearing gets older a thicker oil can be tried. One way of testing the condition of the sleeve/spindle bearing is to try to pull it out after cleaning/re oiling - there should be a good air seal meaning there is a good resistance to pulling the spindle out.

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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Trio KD1033 » 30 Dec 2015 17:56

fitcaz wrote:STD305S owner from new. As far as I know there is a ball sealed in the bottom - it cant come out because there is a sleeve bearing at the top. It is the sleeve bearing to spindle that generates the noise not the ball spindle contact. Lack of lube will increase wear on the sleeve to the point where the spindle rocks in the sleeve. I dont know of any way to replace it if its gone that far. For me a good clean/flush with alcohol is best - with earbuds to swish around inside to clean it. Having the correct oil is a good idea which was labeled as silicone on the original. I have used sewing machine oil, but there is also turntable oil out there that has carbon to help lube the spindle. As the bearing gets older a thicker oil can be tried. One way of testing the condition of the sleeve/spindle bearing is to try to pull it out after cleaning/re oiling - there should be a good air seal meaning there is a good resistance to pulling the spindle out.
Hi Fitcaz, thanks for that.
I'm guessing your bearing well looks more like this then:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... &mode=view

Rather than like mine which looks like this:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5709/236 ... 79da_z.jpgSTD 305m Bearing by Andy Likes Cameras, on Flickr

I've managed to contact an ex-member of vinyl engine who went by the name of Willbewill. He was very big on the Strathclyde decks and assures me that his 305m had a ball in the well.
The width of the opening to the housing is 7mm, with that in mind I've ordered up a 6.35mm ball and a 6mm ball. I've tried a smaller 4.76mm but it just moved around too much, but rather tellingly span extremely freely!

The next size up from 6.35mm seemed to be 7mm, but I'd guess that would be too tight.

I've just remembered something else that is significant, when I first got the deck the motor pulley was pushed 5 or 6mm down from the top of the spindle. All pictures of the motor pulley that I can find show the top of the pulley as being more or less flush to the top of the spindle. Perhaps this was moved to accommodate the drop of the sub platter after the ball was removed/lost.

Andy

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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Trio KD1033 » 31 Dec 2015 14:24

Well, I received my ball bearings today and they are an excellent fit in the lower sleeve. I tried both the 6mm ball and the 6.35mm (1/4"). Unfortunately the height of the ball means that the spindle now has no contact with the lower sleeve. This causes the sub platter to wobble pretty badly due to lack of support. Anything smaller, just rattles around and is impossible to centre.

I'm now more and more of the thinking that the rather elaborate domed structure at the base of the housing was designed with no ball in mind, and that the marks on the spindle are a result of running with low oil. I saw some similar markings on spindles in a Linn forum.
I wonder if they changed the design during production, as everyone who owns a 305, be it the 's' version or 'm' seems to have a ball bearing.

Andy

Alec124c41
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Re: STD 305M main bearing question

Post by Alec124c41 » 31 Dec 2015 20:29

Get a good polish on the sides of the spindle.

Cheers.
Alec