well tempered arm overhang set up

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Woodbrains
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by Woodbrains » 25 Jan 2020 13:57

coltrain wrote:
25 Jan 2020 12:01
o.k thanks, i'll try it.
an additional difficulty is that my cartridge don't have Straight margins, so i'll have to look on the cantilever ,which is not so easy.
i just wonder that if the overhang is not important why most of protractors and manufacturers distractions deal whit it.
Hello,

Overhang is just another way of setting the cart so the needle reaches both the null points you may have on your chart. The result is exactly the same. You either use the overhang OR the protractor, never both. If you had the original arm fitted and an accurate way of measuring the overhang (there is often a little plastic 'jig' supplied to achieve this) then that would work too. Since you don't have the original arm, the specified overhang might be difficult to measure on a different arm. So the protractor will work instead.

Mike.

coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 25 Jan 2020 16:14

i always knew that you have to do both with the protractor, and not only one of them.
as the instruction i got with the turntable and arm:
first the overhang, and then the tracking angle.
maybe i didn't understand you but if overhang alone can be a way to setting the cart , so it can be in the instructed distance but not in the correct tracking angle.
but if you sure that "It is NOT possible to have alignment at several distances of the stylus to spindle." so that can be the answer.

Woodbrains
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by Woodbrains » 25 Jan 2020 17:50

coltrain wrote:
25 Jan 2020 16:14
i always knew that you have to do both with the protractor, and not only one of them.
as the instruction i got with the turntable and arm:
first the overhang, and then the tracking angle.
maybe i didn't understand you but if overhang alone can be a way to setting the cart , so it can be in the instructed distance but not in the correct tracking angle.
but if you sure that "It is NOT possible to have alignment at several distances of the stylus to spindle." so that can be the answer.
Hello,

FORGET THE OVERHANG!

As I said, you cannot set an arm that is not the original one to a prescribed overhang setting for the original one.

Just use the protractor.

Look, it is simple; the original arm was set at the correct tracking angle, it was fixed and designed to work with the table geometry. Therefore, setting the overhang, with the cart straight in the headshell is all you have to do.

You have a different arm. The overhang given for setting your table has no relevance for a different arm. So you cannot use overhang. The protractor WILL, by itself set everything correct. It will simultaneously set the offset angle and the 2 null points at the inner and outer settings. It is not possible to get different results, there is only one correct point at which the offset angle and both inner and outer null points will coincide with the cantilever parallel to the grids. Follow Alec's instructions above!

Mike.

coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 25 Jan 2020 18:24

i did what you suggest in the last paragraph , but i think the first one can't be correct.
this can't be:"the original arm was set at the correct tracking angle, it was fixed and designed to work with the table geometry. Therefore, setting the overhang, with the cart straight in the head-shell is all you have to do."
as you can see from the charts i attached, even if you set the overhang in the old arm you still can ( and probably need to) rotate the cart in the shell to the right angle using the chart.
so setting over hang alone, even with the old arm, can't be the only step to do.

but since it's not relevant any more, i'll stop here.
thanks again everyone for the help.

JoeE SP9
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by JoeE SP9 » 25 Jan 2020 21:15

Setting overhang is one way to align a cartridge. Many vintage Japanese TT's originally came with a jig for setting overhang. There are two other ways. Number one use a two point protractor. They are universal. Number two is to use an arc protractor. They are arm specific. That's why you need to know the exact arm to stylus length. If you know the arms effective length you can use CH's application that generates a chart specifically for the arm.

Use only one method. After that, leave things alone.

Alec's directions for using a two point protractor are the best and easiest to follow I've ever seen.

FWIW: I've been using a DB Systems protractor since the early 1980's

coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 25 Jan 2020 21:59

thank you,
i just read again ALEC instructions ans realized that i didn't fully understand them before.
especially this: "move it forward a bit, and start over" or "move it back a bit, and start over."
now i'm understand his meaning.
sorry for that.
btw there are recommendations to align it parallel looking at the cantilever, instead of the cart body, for the reason the the cantilever can be a bit off parallel to the body.

Alec124c41
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by Alec124c41 » 26 Jan 2020 00:59

The stylus should be parallel to the body.
The stylus can straighten out when the record is playing, or should.
If your stylus bends to the middle of the record, you have too much antiskate.

Cheers,
Alec

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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 26 Jan 2020 13:40

thank you ALEC.
if you already mentioned the anti skating subject ,i'l be glad to have some simple guidance how to set it properly.
i have an old BBC record with a plain track and a small groove in the middle of it.
they suggest to low down the cartridge on it while the record turning, and is should move toward the groove , but stop there. if it's not moving to that direction, so its too much anti skating, if it pass it, it's too low.
other methods i read about is jut lower the cart on the turning record and see which direction the cantilever moves it that moment.

Alec124c41
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by Alec124c41 » 26 Jan 2020 15:11

I have never seen that BBC record. Sounds like a handy item.

Cheers,
Alec

coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 26 Jan 2020 17:08

you are too young :-).
from late seventies.
so how do you set anti-skating?
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coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 26 Jan 2020 17:10

can someone tell me why photos shows upside down, even if i turn them?

GTH
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by GTH » 26 Jan 2020 17:28

Search the forum for anti skate topics and you will find more than enough information to consider(much of it conflicting).
I follow the advise from Peter at Soundsmith where I had one of my cartridges retipped.

Alec124c41
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by Alec124c41 » 27 Jan 2020 00:37

coltrain wrote:
26 Jan 2020 17:08
you are too young :-).
from late seventies.
so how do you set anti-skating?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry, I got into this stuff in the '60s. But AFAIK that BBC disc never crossed the pond.
I don't obsess over the anti-skate. I usually start with a bit less than VTF, and adjust if I hear any unbalanced distortion.

Cheers,
Alec

coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 27 Jan 2020 18:47

GTH wrote:
26 Jan 2020 17:28
Search the forum for anti skate topics and you will find more than enough information to consider(much of it conflicting).
I follow the advise from Peter at Soundsmith where I had one of my cartridges retipped.
.
i did it once, and yes, "much of it conflicting".
what is the advise from Peter at Soundsmith ?

coltrain
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Re: well tempered arm overhang set up

Post by coltrain » 27 Jan 2020 18:52

Alec124c41 wrote:
27 Jan 2020 00:37
coltrain wrote:
26 Jan 2020 17:08
you are too young :-).
from late seventies.
so how do you set anti-skating?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry, I got into this stuff in the '60s. But AFAIK that BBC disc never crossed the pond.
I don't obsess over the anti-skate. I usually start with a bit less than VTF, and adjust if I hear any unbalanced distortion.

Cheers,
Alec
unfortunately my arm don't have anti skating , or any numbered scale.
but i found that change of anti skating does defect to some degree the sound.