Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

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scho2684
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by scho2684 » 05 Dec 2019 11:55

A well known ultra high end arm manufacturer claimed that their 9" is better performing then their 12" however they make 12" on customers request.
The resonance factor is indeed the issue here and I believe him...
The shorter the better (up to the point where the tracking angle starts to become a bigger issue)

billshurv
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by billshurv » 05 Dec 2019 12:42

https://www.welltemperedlab.net/products/royale-400/ This has a 16" arm. Mind you WTL has always gone its own way :)

scho2684
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by scho2684 » 05 Dec 2019 13:04


billshurv
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by billshurv » 05 Dec 2019 13:09

Clearly SAT think that the sort of people who will spaff $65000 on a tonearm don't want any equations or graphs in their discussions.

aviasom
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by aviasom » 06 Dec 2019 00:11

Solist wrote:
05 Dec 2019 11:40
Afaik, there is absolutely no benefit in going further than 11 and something inches.

Interesting your statement! :shock:

Solist
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by Solist » 06 Dec 2019 08:33

aviasom wrote:
06 Dec 2019 00:11
Solist wrote:
05 Dec 2019 11:40
Afaik, there is absolutely no benefit in going further than 11 and something inches.

Interesting your statement! :shock:
People far more intelligent than me have done the math. I am just the messenger 😀

You can use the calculator in the tool section to mess around with the numbers if you want.

Whatever tracking benefit you might think you will get with the lenght of a 18inch tonearm, you will likely loose all of it through resonance problems.

I am not saying that the sound of a 18inch will be less pleasing, because different people like different types of sound. It is just not considered to be the proper way of extracting groove information if that is what you are after.

An advanced type of stylus and cantilever would be a better way to spend your money if you want to improve the tonearm performance. But most often than not you need extra equipment to set those styluses the proper way.

aviasom
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by aviasom » 06 Dec 2019 14:08

Thanks for the info, I will keep researching about it!
 

1200y3
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by 1200y3 » 06 Dec 2019 16:10

The 3009 has still been considered to be "the best tone arm in the world" by some at SME themselves. In order to better it SME had to use materials such as magnesium, and a very high quality captured bearing system, and they actually has to use damping material in the newer arms [-X . If you feel that an "infinite" length vs build and material quality will improve your performance, go ahead and try it. It will help for mono records, and equalize stylus wear, but does nothing to improve vertical mass performance which is needed for stereo and warp tracking. The extra arm material will also color the sound and add to cartridge microphonics, and crosstalk. Resonances has come up before.

Tangent accuracy (geometry) looks good on paper, but has nothing to do with tracking quality and sound quality. Long arms were only needed for 16 inch turntables, which were mono and high mass systems. (Mass, simply stated, means "stuff".

Good luck with your purchase and let us know how the stainless sounds.

totem
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by totem » 06 Dec 2019 17:41

and they actually has to use damping material in the newer arms
While I agree with the other main points posted above the quote regarding damping and newer arms is wrong.

The very first arms made by SME the series 1 had internal arm tube damping being balsa.

tlscapital
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by tlscapital » 07 Dec 2019 02:51

totem wrote:
06 Dec 2019 17:41
and they actually has to use damping material in the newer arms
While I agree with the other main points posted above the quote regarding damping and newer arms is wrong.

The very first arms made by SME the series 1 had internal arm tube damping being balsa.
Yes; for the 3012 ! 3009, only SII and 2 though, did not.

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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by 1200y3 » 07 Dec 2019 04:34

I was going by the series V brochure, as it stated that it used internal wand damping. I don't recall if my Shure 3009 did or didn't.

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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by aviasom » 07 Dec 2019 21:39

totem wrote:
06 Dec 2019 17:41
and they actually has to use damping material in the newer arms
While I agree with the other main points posted above the quote regarding damping and newer arms is wrong.

The very first arms made by SME the series 1 had internal arm tube damping being balsa.
One thing I must confess, I had not considered the resonance factor in the new wand!

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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by aviasom » 10 Dec 2019 01:01

Thanks to all who participated in the topic!
Faced with so many uncertainties decides not to make the change in my SME 3012!

One last question, in the Cartridge Resonance Evaluator tool, is the reported dynamic compliance lateral or vertical?
I have always based, vertical compliance!

tlscapital
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by tlscapital » 10 Dec 2019 16:08

Please be patient with me, English is not my native language! Hope we were enough :P Patience is a virtue and so I believe your last stand is wise. Never forget to only do one tweak, upgrade or change one at a time.

Maybe focus first on how to improve your turntable own inertia, the right effective mass for your tonearm to suit best your cartridge compliance, then seek your speakers in your room best positioning before anchoring them.

Your platter matt(s) and all other dearer phono gear purchases should be done only in later stages if ever you seek something so peculiar achievable only through that after you had the chance to witness it's "voodoo workings".

aviasom
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Re: Modifying SME 3012 S2 to 18 inches!

Post by aviasom » 10 Dec 2019 16:31

Since the year of 2009 I participate in this forum, people have always been very kind to me, this time was no different, thank you all who very patiently contributed their opinions on this topic, thank you!