Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

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craschowder
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Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 04 Aug 2019 20:11

So, I have been trying different combinations of coupling and decoupling the record to the platter. I stumbled upon a quite remarkable solution that works incredibly well and sounds top notch. For me, at least.

I've achieved this using a combination of products from Hudson Hi-Fi. And no, I do not work for them.

From platter to vinyl in order: Flat side of acrylic mat, 4 silicone spacers that come with their isolation feet (durometer 50, shore A) ), the vinyl of course and then the Big Ben record weight sits on top. This creates a precise yet airy sound where the music is tight yet the record "breathes" and shows more energy in the upper frequencies. Tapping the plinth results in less noise. As you can see, the coupling is minimal and placed only where it really needs to be. The weight and 2 spacers immediately beneath dampens things just the right amount.

Static is now a 100% complete non-factor. I'm in a dry desert environment plagued by static and dust. My old and even new 180g super-clingers are no longer being charged. That is to say, "I sense nothing when I flip."

Gear used: Technics SL-1200 MK5 > Stanton Broadcast Cart > U-Turn Pluto > Yamaha S-A701 > Klipsch F-100 / Polk PSW10.

This is now my preferred mat setup. The difference is too real. You can see the pattern I chose for the spacers in the photos. Love the vinyl life! Your thoughts and comments are appreciated!

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lenjack
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by lenjack » 04 Aug 2019 22:41

Seems like that would resonate, but if it works, and you like the way it sounds...

craschowder
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 04 Aug 2019 23:16

lenjack wrote:
04 Aug 2019 22:41
Seems like that would resonate, but if it works, and you like the way it sounds...
The more detail the cart picks up from tapping the record, the more detailed the stylus response. No standing resonation to be heard.

Solist
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by Solist » 05 Aug 2019 08:33

craschowder wrote:
04 Aug 2019 23:16
lenjack wrote:
04 Aug 2019 22:41
Seems like that would resonate, but if it works, and you like the way it sounds...
The more detail the cart picks up from tapping the record, the more detailed the stylus response. No standing resonation to be heard.
I have my doubts also.. But hey, if you like how it sounds, then I won't judge.

For the static problems, just get a room humidifier.

The tapping idea does not make much sense. You want to damp any type of vibrations that would cause the stylus to move without reason. If you place the record on the mat so that it makes good contact, the mat will absorb the vibrations caused by the needle which are transferred to the record.

If you reduce the amount of contacts, the record will vibrate more causing all sorts of unwanted vibrations being picked up by the stylus.

So ideally, if you were to tap the record you should not hear any sound at all. But that is pretty much impossible given how sensitive the needle is.
Last edited by Solist on 05 Aug 2019 09:03, edited 1 time in total.

craschowder
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 05 Aug 2019 09:03

Solist wrote:
05 Aug 2019 08:33
craschowder wrote:
04 Aug 2019 23:16
lenjack wrote:
04 Aug 2019 22:41
Seems like that would resonate, but if it works, and you like the way it sounds...
The more detail the cart picks up from tapping the record, the more detailed the stylus response. No standing resonation to be heard.
I have my doubts also.. But hey, if you like how it sounds, then I won't judge.

For the static problems, just get a room humidifier.

You want to damp any type of vibrations that would cause the stylus to move without reason.
Agreed with the vibrations part. However, I believe the weight along with the stand off's right underneath provide the ideal amount of dampening. The idea here is that over dampening leads to a darker sound which this approach livens up. There is more energy in the sound. There are quite a few mats available that provide this kind of decoupling so it is certainly not unheard of.

And static generation is now a non-issue. That is a huge benefit of this.

The sound is effortless if that makes sense. For what it is worth, my bands debut album was released on LP Vinyl and this approach more closely resembles the masters.

Solist
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by Solist » 05 Aug 2019 09:44

It depends what are you trying to achieve.

I stopped messing with my turntable and equipment when I found out that it sounds as good or better compared to going to a local jam session. I could not stand the fact that I started to think about sound, rather than listening to lines.

But in theory: if you want to get what is in the grooves without any type of coloration, then a very heavy platter with a clamp/weight and a good mat that supports the record across the entire surface is the way to go. In this case, the record will weight as much as the platter, reducing the amount of any vibrations to a minimum. There is no over dampening of the record in this sense. Except a very heavy weight that might cause the vinyl to dish. Otherwise you get coloration on top of coloration and you loose detail - which gives you the feeling of a more live music. But most live music you hear is through PA systems, so.. Most companies will try to sell you a thin sheet of metal rather than a heavy platter, since they can move more units and have a bigger profit margin.

And also, you probably want to keep the supports symmetrical, otherwise you will get different type of resonances across the record.

IMO, a turntable should extract what is in the grooves without any type of added effects. Its the job of the rest of the equipment to bring life to the music. This is a good excuse to get a couple more cartridges! ;)

And the best way I have found to liven up the music, was to turn the volume knob up, so it reproduced the same amount of db as a live instrument in the recording would. However, my neighbors may disagree..

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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by Pauw » 05 Aug 2019 10:22

It sounds like pseudo Science to me.......................... :D

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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 05 Aug 2019 10:24

Solist wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:44

I stopped messing with my turntable and equipment when I found out that it sounds as good or better compared to going to a local jam session.
Exactly! I would be interested. If you try this approach and your thoughts after listening.

Saying goodbye to all static alone is worth the price of admission.

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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 05 Aug 2019 10:30

Pauw wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:22
It sounds like pseudo Science to me.......................... :D
Decoupling mats are widely available and have been for many years. This is for good reason. So pseudo science is a bit forward. I trust my ears. Try it! You have nothing to loose.

Also, the ZERO STATIC thing... That is kind of a big deal.
Last edited by craschowder on 05 Aug 2019 10:40, edited 1 time in total.

NOYB
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by NOYB » 05 Aug 2019 10:33

lenjack wrote:
04 Aug 2019 22:41
Seems like that would resonate, but if it works, and you like the way it sounds...
My thoughts exactly.
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:03
Agreed with the vibrations part. However, I believe the weight along with the stand off's right underneath provide the ideal amount of dampening.
Believe all you want won't change physics. Where are the measurements to support this belief? Even a bell has a point of dampening. The key there being a "point". All that unsupported area is subject to resonation. Isn't one of the objectives of a record weight or clamp to increase coupling? Seems like the approach should be to eliminate/reduce plater resonation and tightly couple to that. The only vibrations the stylus should be subjected to are the undulations in the groves. Though that is cost prohibitive for nearly everyone (maybe even everyone).
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:03
The idea here is that over dampening leads to a darker sound which this approach livens up. There is more energy in the sound.
No doubt at all about that. In fact that is what I first thought of.
Sounds different, brighter, warmer, whatever, does not equate to better quality. For example have a read through this article by Roger Russell re: speaker wire. He provides an example where expensive speaker wire actually causes ringing. That rigning though is interpreted by some (suckers if you will) as being brighter and since those cables cost a lot and the mfg says they are better, well the difference heard must be better. But in fact it is worse.

Speaker Wire
A History
by Roger Russell
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:03
There are quite a few mats available that provide this kind of decoupling so it is certainly not unheard of.
Same for exorbitantly expensive speaker cables, interconnect cables, and all manner of things in all sorts of fields. Unaffectionately refereed to as snake oil.

I don't care if something makes it brighter, more live, warmer, darker, or whatever. What I care about is did it make it more accurate to the source.
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:24
Saying goodbye to all static alone is worth the price of admission.
There are more appropriate means of dealing with static without introducing these degrading issues.

craschowder
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 05 Aug 2019 10:44

NOYB wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:33
lenjack wrote:
04 Aug 2019 22:41
Seems like that would resonate, but if it works, and you like the way it sounds...
My thoughts exactly.
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:03
Agreed with the vibrations part. However, I believe the weight along with the stand off's right underneath provide the ideal amount of dampening.
Believe all you want won't change physics. Where are the measurements to support this belief? Even a bell has a point of dampening. The key there being a "point". All that unsupported area is subject to resonation. Isn't one of the objectives of a record weight or clamp to increase coupling? Seems like the approach should be to eliminate/reduce plater resonation and tightly couple to that. The only vibrations the stylus should be subjected to are the undulations in the groves. Though that is cost prohibitive for nearly everyone (maybe even everyone).
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:03
The idea here is that over dampening leads to a darker sound which this approach livens up. There is more energy in the sound.
No doubt at all about that. In fact that is what I first thought of.
Sounds different, brighter, warmer, whatever, does not equate to better quality. For example have a read through this article by Roger Russell re: speaker wire. He provides an example where expensive speaker wire actually causes ringing. That rigning though is interpreted by some (suckers if you will) as being brighter and since those cables cost a lot and the mfg says they are better, well the difference heard must be better. But in fact it is worse.

Speaker Wire
A History
by Roger Russell
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:03
There are quite a few mats available that provide this kind of decoupling so it is certainly not unheard of.
Same for exorbitantly expensive speaker cables, interconnect cables, and all manner of things in all sorts of fields. Unaffectionately refereed to as snake oil.

I don't care if something makes it brighter, more live, warmer, darker, or whatever. What I care about is did it make it more accurate to the source.
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:24
Saying goodbye to all static alone is worth the price of admission.
There are more appropriate means of dealing with static without introducing these degrading issues.
I respectfully disagree but I appreciate and enjoyed your response and will look at that article for sure! Thank you for your feedback!

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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by NOYB » 05 Aug 2019 10:46

craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:30
Decoupling mats are widely available and have been for many years. This is for good reason. So pseudo science is a bit forward. I trust my ears. Try it! You have nothing to loose.
So have thousand dollar speaker cables. Only thing it proves, or at least supports, is the old adage that there's a sucker born every minute.

craschowder
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 05 Aug 2019 10:54

The idea that having the vinyl surface 100% coupled to the platter to achieve better isolation and that an equal amount of the TT's sympathetic vibrations would not be transferred to the vinyl is just an unreasonable assertion. What I am suggesting here is that you use weight, not surface to provide the necessary dampening while allowing the compensated weight of the arm extract the detail. It works very well and killed static 100%.

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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by craschowder » 05 Aug 2019 11:07

NOYB wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:46
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:30
Decoupling mats are widely available and have been for many years. This is for good reason. So pseudo science is a bit forward. I trust my ears. Try it! You have nothing to loose.
So have thousand dollar speaker cables. Only thing it proves, or at least supports, is the old adage that there's a sucker born every minute.
Point taken. Except that I am not selling anything and this has nothing to do with cables.

NOYB
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Re: Solved! Experimenting with coupling & decoupling.

Post by NOYB » 05 Aug 2019 11:14

craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:54
The idea that having the vinyl surface 100% coupled to the platter to achieve better isolation and that an equal amount of the TT's sympathetic vibrations would not be transferred to the vinyl is just an unreasonable assertion.
Record weight and clamp mfg's are not going to be happy to learn this.
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:54
What I am suggesting here is that you use weight, not surface to provide the necessary dampening while allowing the compensated weight of the arm extract the detail.
The amount of resonation in a floating record is going to be far more than that of any reasonable platter. The difference you hear demonstrates this.
craschowder wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:54
It works very well and killed static 100%.
Humidity will kill static too. Could even buy some of that deionized water that was being sold a few years ago for about $10 per oz.

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