Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

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T.O.S.
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Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by T.O.S. » 26 May 2019 13:15

I am interessed in fluid damping solutions . As the KAB solution fits only on Technics SL1210 tonearms I am interessed in adapting solutions for the different Technics tonearms , on the SL1500 mk1 and SL-D3
Some experience ,suggestions ?

rewfew
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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by rewfew » 26 May 2019 20:38

Boy all's I could say is. Sell your two and get a good used 1200, 1600, 1700 or 1800 mk2 model's it fits. That would probably be the easiest solution. But I don't know if you could adapt the KAB to either of your tables without some maybe expensive modifications. Know a machinist? The damping trough clamps on to the vertical pillar of the gimbal assembly like so, with a set screw.
https://www.kabusa.com/GIF/td1200a.jpg

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by T.O.S. » 26 May 2019 21:05

rewfew wrote:
26 May 2019 20:38
The damping trough clamps on to the vertical pillar of the gimbal assembly like so, with a set screw.
https://www.kabusa.com/GIF/td1200a.jpg
That is interesting , I suppose it's like the Jelco system , but I don't find some detailed schematics ...Can you give me some details on it ?

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by nat » 26 May 2019 23:03

Back in the 70s, Audio or Stereo Review had an article on using a plastic cable clamp and a tin box to fashion a damping paddle and trough system. Not as asethetic and technical as the KAB thing, but cheaper and infinitely adaptable. With 3D printing, a nice trough ought to be relatively easy to make, which might improve the looks dramatically.

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by T.O.S. » 26 May 2019 23:21

nat wrote:
26 May 2019 23:03
Back in the 70s, Audio or Stereo Review had an article on using a plastic cable clamp and a tin box to fashion a damping paddle and trough system. Not as asethetic and technical as the KAB thing, but cheaper and infinitely adaptable. With 3D printing, a nice trough ought to be relatively easy to make, which might improve the looks dramatically.
I know that articole , but the sistem with a well on the vertical Pillat of the gimbal îs a bit unclear how does it workshop .

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by tlscapital » 27 May 2019 02:17

Well, to DIY (3D printer...) a fluid dampening device would be my take on it as well. There's not much there that requires an engineer PHD in there. I would also opt for a "cartridge" fluid dampening device while at it.

Like those Townshend 'Elite Rock' turntable's fluid dampening, if they seem less user's friendly (risk of fluid dampening drops on the record) they are evidently better performer at the cartridge end where it all happens.
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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by Woodbrains » 27 May 2019 10:21

tlscapital wrote:
27 May 2019 02:17


Like those Townshend 'Elite Rock' turntable's fluid dampening, if they seem less user's friendly (risk of fluid dampening drops on the record) they are evidently better performer at the cartridge end where it all happens.

Hello,

I'd use a screw down record clamp with that system too, and make playing records the most inconvenient process imaginable! Devices that cause more problems than they solve are STUPID!

The same sort of thing at the counter weight sub end would do exactly the same thing, though, wouldn't it? It would be pre set, so no faffing about.

Mike.

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by rewfew » 27 May 2019 15:41

T.O.S. wrote:
26 May 2019 21:05
That is interesting , I suppose it's like the Jelco system , but I don't find some detailed schematics ...Can you give me some details on it ?
Don't follow you there T.O.S.. You mean like a mechanical drawing with dimensions? Not possible. The tonearm on the models it fits is just different construction and dimensions than your models. I guess you could buy one and see if it would fit, but that would seem very unlikely. You could email KAB and get their opinion. But, they'd probably say, It won't fit your turntable arm model. Or you get one of the Technics models that it would fit, then you would have VTA adjustment also. Consider it one of life's little dilemma's.

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by tlscapital » 27 May 2019 17:44

Woodbrains wrote:
27 May 2019 10:21
Hello,

I'd use a screw down record clamp with that system too, and make playing records the most inconvenient process imaginable! Devices that cause more problems than they solve are STUPID!

The same sort of thing at the counter weight sub end would do exactly the same thing, though, wouldn't it? It would be pre set, so no faffing about.

Mike.
Hi Mike, well it's been discussed and argued to some point (yes only due to some subjectiveness and not objective facts to a point). But this debate focused on tonearm fluid dampening devices, so above and not only the likes of the KAB for the Techies, the SME's, and evidently the Townshend 'Elite Rock' that got the better performance logically.

The fluid dampener device placed at the cartridge-end will perform optimistically where at the pivot bearing less. The added "inertia" further away from the cartridge will always be more prone to the tonearm rigidity ratio from the pivot bearing up to the cartridge cantilever suspension that will provide the extra groove read precision better or less.

Still those SME's and KAB contenders do perform rather well and are a renowned "upgrade" for those light and medium effective mass tonearms. It's been discussed but not really in depth or with objective measurements that it was considered an upgrade also on heavy mass tonearms. But only claimed "subjectively"... I am still doubtful some there.

I play mostly 45's and have only one turntable, so record swapping on the revolving platter is something I know rather well. And enjoyment during these music frenzy sessions is a must for me. So clamps, weights on spindle bearings and/or dampening fluid devices are not welcome in my swift free & handy human 'juke box' musical sessions.

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by T.O.S. » 27 May 2019 19:15

rewfew wrote:
27 May 2019 15:41

Don't follow you there T.O.S.. You mean like a mechanical drawing with dimensions? Not possible. The tonearm on the models it fits is just different construction and dimensions than your models. I guess you could buy one and see if it would fit, but that would seem very unlikely. You could email KAB and get their opinion. But, they'd probably say, It won't fit your turntable arm model. Or you get one of the Technics models that it would fit, then you would have VTA adjustment also. Consider it one of life's little dilemma's.
I was referring at the Jelco , not necesarily dimensions , but how are the vibrations transmitted to the damping oil ?
In the KAB system ,as in the SME one ,there is a little metalic piece coupled with the tonearm , that travels in the groove well ,touches the damping oil transmitting to it the vibrations .

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by nat » 29 May 2019 21:53

The Jelco has a well in the top of the pivot block, and a hemispherical dome above it on the part that goes up the side and over the arm. That dome can be screwed in and out, to allow greater or lesser (or no) damping.
With regard to the Townshend - that damping system apparently works extraordinarily well because it damps out vibrations very near where they happen, before then get into the arm tube and start resonating with fascinating rhythm. It also functions as a second locator on the arm, so that the arm is held on both ends, making it very rigid relative to audio frequencies. The same damping mechanism stuck on the counterweight end would actually exacerbate any lack of rigidity in the arm bearings since it would make rattling more likely - the cartridge end putting vibration into the system, and the counterweight damping end holding the end of the arm still so that the inevitable slob in the bearings will be the only place that can move. Obviously it would be minor, but why damp if it makes things worse?

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by Woodbrains » 29 May 2019 22:34

nat wrote:
29 May 2019 21:53

With regard to the Townshend - that damping system apparently works extraordinarily well because it damps out vibrations very near where they happen, before then get into the arm tube and start resonating with fascinating rhythm. It also functions as a second locator on the arm, so that the arm is held on both ends, making it very rigid relative to audio frequencies. The same damping mechanism stuck on the counterweight end would actually exacerbate any lack of rigidity in the arm bearings since it would make rattling more likely - the cartridge end putting vibration into the system, and the counterweight damping end holding the end of the arm still so that the inevitable slob in the bearings will be the only place that can move. Obviously it would be minor, but why damp if it makes things worse?
Hello,

I'm not sure of any of this. Fluid damping is not the same thing, nor an addition to, the arm tube damping. The extremely low frequency undulations of wobbly a record and off centre holes would not trouble the arm tube with resonance, however fascinating. Besides, the arm tube should already be damped to deal with those sort of resonances, without the fluid damper, and they will not get worse with it.

It does not matter to the arm bearings if the fluid damping is at the cart end of the counterweight end. With counterweight end fluid damping, it is not as if the arm tube is somehow undamped all the way along until the very end, and then it is. How can the arm undulations cause the bearings to rattle, because the damper is behind them? The whole arm motion is damped, whichever end the fluid is situated. If it could matter which end worked best, it would be arguable that it is better at the weight end; the abrupt motion of the biggest mass of the arm, right next to the bearings, would make the biggest rattle, no? Luckily fluid damping works for the whole arm system; an abrupt movement damped at whichever end is an abrupt movement damped at the other end. Even a counterweight stub that is rubber bushed would have no real diminishing effect on the fluid damper, since the motions are of such a low frequency as to pass through the junction unaltered.

If any benefits of the Townsend system could even be measured, then surely just a small modification in the quantity or viscosity of the fluid in the counterweight end version would surely make up for that. Nothing could make up for the extremely inconvenient position of the front end damping system itself, though.

Mike.

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by rewfew » 29 May 2019 22:42

More vertical damping than lateral damping. The KAB damper's effect explained.
https://www.kabusa.com/damping.htm

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by nat » 29 May 2019 23:31

Unlike you, I believe that fluid damping does have an effect on more than warps and off center records. Over the years there has been plenty of consistent comment and measurement about the effect on imaging and cleanliness and solidity of sound. The mechanism by which this would work is pretty obvious - if an arm resonates (and they all do, despite your belief in the complete effectiveness of arm tube damping), damping will moderate it. What Hi Fi? used to publish arm resonance graphs which seemed pretty convincing to me, and no doubt other publications have also.
I see some contradiction between your belief that competent engineering can eliminate arm resonance and your dismissal of the engineering of the Townshend damper. Townshend products are well regarded, which suggests competent engineering, so why would they produce what is clearly an odd and cumbrous accessory if it didn't actually do what it is claimed it does?

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Re: Tonearm adapted fluid damping solutions ?

Post by Woodbrains » 31 May 2019 00:39

nat wrote:
29 May 2019 23:31
Unlike you, I believe that fluid damping does have an effect on more than warps and off center records.
No, I'm certain it will have some effect, any device in the system will have an effect on lots of aspects, even ones the designers didn't initially intend.
nat wrote:
29 May 2019 23:31

I see some contradiction between your belief that competent engineering can eliminate arm resonance and your dismissal of the engineering of the Townshend damper. Townshend products are well regarded, which suggests competent engineering, so why would they produce what is clearly an odd and cumbrous accessory if it didn't actually do what it is claimed it does?
I don't dismiss the engineering of the Townsend, just an observation that it is a bad design. It may work minimising arm resonance as you say, but so what. It is an absolutely awful solution to that problem, good engineering bad design. If I wanted to minimise arm resonances I would look to re engineer the arm, if I came up with the front end fluid damper, I would revisit the arm design, and again and again. Nothing would convince me that THAT is a solution to arm resonance. Is it simple, elegant convenient NO,NO NO!

Now here is a conundrum; Origin Live state that their arm tube damping is so effective, that cartridge compliance/effective mass miss matches are inconsequential. Could this be a (let's face it, common) overblown claim to sell products. By the same token, so could the Townsend claims of their fluid damper. Or is Origin Lives arm tube damping (I guess the whole arm system) really that good? In which case, Townsend should have re-visited their arm tube damping!

Mike.

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