Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

snap, crackle and pop
countingteeth
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 14 Jan 2019 18:05

You are starting to sound like you are a troll. Conical last longer than elliptical by 30% due to contact area for hif 2 channel there is no point in Shibata and it wars records and itself more than line contact, if you dont need quad there is no point. There are a lot of names of stylus and Shibata is not a line contact it is always Shibata line contact covers a number of profiles but Shibata is always distinguished and it is not so special. You really need to calm down, 7 posts...
Chris
Ok....on post 8 I'll stick with Shibata is a Line Contact , you are making a category error, Soundsmith aren't misleading anybody and Aliens didnt build the Pyramids ie I'm not going to play pigeon chess with you...

countingteeth
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 14 Jan 2019 18:14

tom6to1 wrote:
14 Jan 2019 17:41
I spent some time looking into this before moving up from an AT150MLx to an Ortofon Quintet Black as I too was curious about MC. (The Ortofon has a Shibata stylus). Since the cost of these cartridges is getting in the painful range, you want to spend some time making sure the compliance of your tonearm and the cartridge are compatible, and you want to check that the impedance and gain through your Pre-amp or SUT is a good match. Best choices will depend on what falls into the sweet spot for both of the above. With a Jelco 750D (the 10" arm) and Lounge Audio SUT and pre-amp, the best choices under $1300 CAD were Benz Micro-Glider and the Quintet black.
Hi,

The OP seems to be on a budget of less than $1000...if that were to include pre-amp and/or SUT there is not much to manoeuvre with...

Origin basically say the compliance is not too important and the arm should work with just about anything...not sure how true that is, but it is what they say...

https://www.originlive.com/cartridge-co ... -live-arm/

Eggwin
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Eggwin » 14 Jan 2019 20:48

I was actually suggesting around 1000 pounds for each item. So around 1200 dollars max for each item

cafe latte
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 14 Jan 2019 23:41

countingteeth wrote:
14 Jan 2019 18:05
You are starting to sound like you are a troll. Conical last longer than elliptical by 30% due to contact area for hif 2 channel there is no point in Shibata and it wars records and itself more than line contact, if you dont need quad there is no point. There are a lot of names of stylus and Shibata is not a line contact it is always Shibata line contact covers a number of profiles but Shibata is always distinguished and it is not so special. You really need to calm down, 7 posts...
Chris
Ok....on post 8 I'll stick with Shibata is a Line Contact , you are making a category error, Soundsmith aren't misleading anybody and Aliens didnt build the Pyramids ie I'm not going to play pigeon chess with you...
No a Shibata is a Shibata read the link I sent you Shibata has a special cut for quad. I have a Decca instructions in front of me it had a Van de Hul line contact it wont play quad.
This by the way is a quote from Soundsmith
"Then, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes."
Read the first line Umm line contact then more esoteric evolution's (talking about fine line profiles) and Mico line (newer spoke aboput after Shibata). Shibata is a Shibata, line contact is line contact and Micro line is micro line, they are not the same.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 14 Jan 2019 23:57

countingteeth wrote:
14 Jan 2019 18:05
You are starting to sound like you are a troll. Conical last longer than elliptical by 30% due to contact area for hif 2 channel there is no point in Shibata and it wars records and itself more than line contact, if you dont need quad there is no point. There are a lot of names of stylus and Shibata is not a line contact it is always Shibata line contact covers a number of profiles but Shibata is always distinguished and it is not so special. You really need to calm down, 7 posts...
Chris
Ok....on post 8 I'll stick with Shibata is a Line Contact , you are making a category error, Soundsmith aren't misleading anybody and Aliens didnt build the Pyramids ie I'm not going to play pigeon chess with you...
I think what you are missing is a Shibata is a special cut and it is never referred to as anything else but a Shibata. A line contact is not a Shibata unless it has the Shibata cut otherwise it is a line contact (like Soundsmith says), then there is micro line or micro linear different cut again, these are not shibata either..
Chris

countingteeth
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 15 Jan 2019 17:12


I think what you are missing is a Shibata is a special cut and it is never referred to as anything else but a Shibata.

A line contact is not a Shibata unless it has the Shibata cut otherwise it is a line contact (like Soundsmith says), then there is micro line or micro linear different cut again, these are not shibata either..
Chris
Out of curiosity, if Audio Technica were to perhaps, have a category of say Line Contact, with say members Shibata and Microline, would they be misleading the public to...?

Tonybro
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Tonybro » 15 Jan 2019 20:59

Just for your information - the de-railing of this thread sent the OP off and he's come back with a different handle, asked the same question and got answers related to his post.

Thanks everyone! :-(

cafe latte
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 15 Jan 2019 22:41

countingteeth wrote:
15 Jan 2019 17:12

I think what you are missing is a Shibata is a special cut and it is never referred to as anything else but a Shibata.

A line contact is not a Shibata unless it has the Shibata cut otherwise it is a line contact (like Soundsmith says), then there is micro line or micro linear different cut again, these are not shibata either..
Chris
Out of curiosity, if Audio Technica were to perhaps, have a category of say Line Contact, with say members Shibata and Microline, would they be misleading the public to...?
You are trolling now you have even a Soundsmith link and you have a link of stylus profiles explain. Tonybro is right should not have given you the time of day.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 16 Jan 2019 05:34

Look ok it is true that the term line contact can cover the group know as fine line stylus depending which manufacture you speak to and maybe this is your point. All I was trying to get across was even as Soundsmith say if a stylus is simply referred to as a line contact it is not a Shibata even special line contact (AT carts) is other thing not a Shibata, yes Shibata lives in a group of line contacts or fine line again whoever you speak to, but if a tip is a Shibata it is a Shibata not a line contact or a microline they are different cuts. AT list line contact, special line contact Shibata and microline as different stylus option and they call them line contacts other companies call them fine lines, point is all the cuts are different it is why stylus life is different for all.
Anyway this has been done to death now time to move on..
Chris

countingteeth
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 16 Jan 2019 07:42

cafe latte wrote:
16 Jan 2019 05:34
Look ok it is true that the term line contact can cover the group know as fine line stylus depending which manufacture you speak to and maybe this is your point.

All I was trying to get across was even as Soundsmith say if a stylus is simply referred to as a line contact it is not a Shibata even special line contact (AT carts) is other thing not a Shibata, yes Shibata lives in a group of line contacts or fine line again whoever you speak to, but if a tip is a Shibata it is a Shibata not a line contact or a microline they are different cuts. AT list line contact, special line contact Shibata and microline as different stylus option and they call them line contacts other companies call them fine lines, point is all the cuts are different it is why stylus life is different for all.

Anyway this has been done to death now time to move on..
Chris
... I certainly agree that there is ambiguity in the name of the category across manufactures and even within some manufactures own literature that leads to all kinds of confusion....

the horse is dead...moving on...

tom6to1
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by tom6to1 » 16 Jan 2019 20:27

countingteeth wrote:
14 Jan 2019 18:14
tom6to1 wrote:
14 Jan 2019 17:41
I spent some time looking into this before moving up from an AT150MLx to an Ortofon Quintet Black as I too was curious about MC. (The Ortofon has a Shibata stylus). Since the cost of these cartridges is getting in the painful range, you want to spend some time making sure the compliance of your tonearm and the cartridge are compatible, and you want to check that the impedance and gain through your Pre-amp or SUT is a good match. Best choices will depend on what falls into the sweet spot for both of the above. With a Jelco 750D (the 10" arm) and Lounge Audio SUT and pre-amp, the best choices under $1300 CAD were Benz Micro-Glider and the Quintet black.
Hi,

The OP seems to be on a budget of less than $1000...if that were to include pre-amp and/or SUT there is not much to manoeuvre with...

Origin basically say the compliance is not too important and the arm should work with just about anything...not sure how true that is, but it is what they say...

https://www.originlive.com/cartridge-co ... -live-arm/
The OP is working within different constraints than I am. One cartridge I was very interested in trying due to price and a lot of good reviews was the Hana SL which in Canada is at a lower price point ($800 I think). Impedance was too high to work well with my Lounge Audio COPLA for the gain it required and I wanted to stay with a low-output cartridge. If the OP can find a more nimble SUT or MC-pre that will allow higher impedance (I think you need 400 ohms or more) then the Hana might be in range. Not sure on British prices so maybe the Hana plus a MC-pre is still out of range.

Perhaps the best place to go here is a high-output MC cartridge. Those will work just fine with a MM-pre so he does not need to buy that piece of hardware. That puts a number of cartridges in his price range (e.g.: Denon DL-110, Hana EH or SH , and there are others). I have no personal experience with any MC high-output cartridge so maybe other forum members could advise? Reading back to page 1, I see Legrace has already made a similar suggestion for cartridges.

countingteeth
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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 17 Jan 2019 07:45

tom6to1 wrote:
16 Jan 2019 20:27
countingteeth wrote:
14 Jan 2019 18:14
tom6to1 wrote:
14 Jan 2019 17:41
I spent some time looking into this before moving up from an AT150MLx to an Ortofon Quintet Black as I too was curious about MC. (The Ortofon has a Shibata stylus). Since the cost of these cartridges is getting in the painful range, you want to spend some time making sure the compliance of your tonearm and the cartridge are compatible, and you want to check that the impedance and gain through your Pre-amp or SUT is a good match. Best choices will depend on what falls into the sweet spot for both of the above. With a Jelco 750D (the 10" arm) and Lounge Audio SUT and pre-amp, the best choices under $1300 CAD were Benz Micro-Glider and the Quintet black.
Hi,

The OP seems to be on a budget of less than $1000...if that were to include pre-amp and/or SUT there is not much to manoeuvre with...

Origin basically say the compliance is not too important and the arm should work with just about anything...not sure how true that is, but it is what they say...

https://www.originlive.com/cartridge-co ... -live-arm/
The OP is working within different constraints than I am. One cartridge I was very interested in trying due to price and a lot of good reviews was the Hana SL which in Canada is at a lower price point ($800 I think). Impedance was too high to work well with my Lounge Audio COPLA for the gain it required and I wanted to stay with a low-output cartridge. If the OP can find a more nimble SUT or MC-pre that will allow higher impedance (I think you need 400 ohms or more) then the Hana might be in range. Not sure on British prices so maybe the Hana plus a MC-pre is still out of range.

Perhaps the best place to go here is a high-output MC cartridge. Those will work just fine with a MM-pre so he does not need to buy that piece of hardware. That puts a number of cartridges in his price range (e.g.: Denon DL-110, Hana EH or SH , and there are others). I have no personal experience with any MC high-output cartridge so maybe other forum members could advise? Reading back to page 1, I see Legrace has already made a similar suggestion for cartridges.
Hi,

I misread the OP's budget....he does appear to have a bit more to spend...

That being said, I agree that he HANA's are an interesting option given their price.

As for SUT for the L versions, the Cinemag 3440 has 3 taps [ 37.5,150,600 : 50K ], the 600ohm ones gives the required >400 ohm, that the HANA manufacturers spec. The other taps are useful for other carts. They are also very reasonably priced, particularly if you want a DIY option. There are a number of ebay sellers selling pre built units and there is Bob's devices as well.. if you are looking for alternatives to the Cinnemag, the HANA SL rule of thumb (Exceptions apply ] is a SUT that can do between 8X and 12X .. [ ie "load impedance" drops the higher you go ... eg 16X would be +-150ohms ]