Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 12:47

raphaelmabo wrote:
13 Jan 2019 12:37
cafe latte wrote:
13 Jan 2019 11:47
ot truem look at MI Grado the top end cost way way more than MC, then Decca same again and amazing perfotmance, Clearaudio, 2M black Soundsmith list goes on and on MC is not the only option and non replaceable stylus has nothing to do with quality of replay just not true.
Chris
MI is technically not the same as MM. Soundsmith does not make MM, they make MI, without replaceable stylus (there are sonical reasons for this). 2M Black may be high-end MM but in absolute terms it is upper mid-market. Clearaudio Maestro V2 is regarded by some as "the worlds best MM pickup" but it's still not high-end in absolute terms, even if it is high-end in MM. It is still upper mid-market. It cost around 1 000 euro. Now, when I talk about high-end cartridges, I talk about over 3-4 000 euros. For example the Sumiko Palo Santos MC for over 4 000 euros or the Zyx Ultimate Diamond för over 12 000 euros. This is the high-end that I'm talking about.


It is true that London Decca has cartridges in this class, but they don't call them MM designs. They say they are neither MM nor MC and they don't have a cantilever. They are special designs, and special designs can be quite expensive. So, London Decca Reference cartridge (around 3 - 3 500 euro) is not technically a MM, even if it is a high output cartridge.

Regarding this about that non-replaceable stylus has nothing to do with the sound, Grado themselves has non-replaceable styluses for their more expensive models - because they believe they sound better, having lower tolerances. It is their entry level Prestige series that has replaceable stylus, but not higher up the line. Their Reference and Statement seriess does not offer replaceable stylus. And Soundsmith, another MI design, does not have it. They believe they can make the body with lower resonances and tighter tolerances when there is no replaceable part, and as thus leading to better sound quality.

In the 70's, it existed MC cartridges with replaceable styluses - it can be done. But it was abandoned. A replaceable stylus is a compromise, even if they are getting better and better.

So I stand with that there are no high-end MM cartridges, and with MM I mean MM designs. The high-end MM's are all in the upper mid-market.
Apart the Decca which is actually MI and yes does not have a cantilever the replaceable stylus has nothing to do with sound quality apart the company who makes it wanting to sell a stylus. Nag carts for example have tiny screws to secure the stylus on. That said The 881 which is a very highly revered MM is just a push on and it sounds amazing (I have one). Re Grado the woody are not user changeable but IMO a new Gold 2 with a nice tip would beat most things and even as it is it is amazing. Fixed or changeable stylus has noting to do with quality.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Legrace » 13 Jan 2019 13:41

Attached article shares useful insights. Advantageous MC attributes of superior tracking, less distortion, better accuracy are indicated. Matches my own experience, especially the further one moves up the MC ladder.

https://www.perreaux.com/blog/2017/9/8/ ... cartridges

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by raphaelmabo » 13 Jan 2019 13:44

Well, when Grado, Soundsmith and others feels that a fixed stylus is better for sound quality than a replaceable, then I won't argue with them. You are free to disagree. :) Soundsmith has a re-tipping service instead. It would be simpler and more economical for them to simply sell replaceable styluses, but they have decided that a fixed stylus is better. I won't argue with them.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 13:54

raphaelmabo wrote:
13 Jan 2019 13:44
Well, when Grado, Soundsmith and others feels that a fixed stylus is better for sound quality than a replaceable, then I won't argue with them. You are free to disagree. :) Soundsmith has a re-tipping service instead. It would be simpler and more economical for them to simply sell replaceable styluses, but they have decided that a fixed stylus is better. I won't argue with them.
If you disagree why, give reasons?
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 13 Jan 2019 14:03


Shibata is not the best profile much rather have a line contact. Shibata is an old profile and wears quickly, misunderstood to today, line contact and ML is better regardless of prices charged and position in range.
A Shibata is a line contact stylis....what it isn't, is a microline....which do last longer than line contacts and even more so than conical's. :/

ie the comparison of the 2M Bronze and HANA SH holds...


I have an MP-500 re last post and IMO I would have this over any of the MC mentioned, I actually prefer the Grado gold 2 and it must be the 2, but that said the MP-500 is more detailed and probably technically the best cart but the Grado is wider which I like, also dont know how Grado go on your turntable so Nag is still a serious recommendation to consider as small isses aside it is an amazing cart way better than a bottom feeder MC ie cheap high output.
Chris
Ok....

..I doubt the MP-500 is "technically" the best cart for the money.[Quintet Black is the same price]...(I kinda hinted that Ortofons sound more like the digital than other carts) and what I've never heard anyone say is that an MP-500 sounds like the digital....(my MP-200 certainly doesnt sound anything like Digital, if anything it would be described as warm and layed back...same goes for every Grado I've owned, which includes the Gold and reference...)...which is great if thats what you are after...ie If the OP said Hi, I'm looking for something layed back with lots of colour I would have directed him to your choices....

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 14:06

countingteeth wrote:
13 Jan 2019 14:03

Shibata is not the best profile much rather have a line contact. Shibata is an old profile and wears quickly, misunderstood to today, line contact and ML is better regardless of prices charged and position in range.
A Shibata is a line contact stylis....what it isn't, is a microline....which do last longer than line contacts and even more so than conical's. :/

ie the comparison of the 2M Bronze and HANA SH holds...


I have an MP-500 re last post and IMO I would have this over any of the MC mentioned, I actually prefer the Grado gold 2 and it must be the 2, but that said the MP-500 is more detailed and probably technically the best cart but the Grado is wider which I like, also dont know how Grado go on your turntable so Nag is still a serious recommendation to consider as small isses aside it is an amazing cart way better than a bottom feeder MC ie cheap high output.
Chris
Ok....

..I doubt the MP-500 is "technically" the best cart for the money.[Quintet Black is the same price]...(I kinda hinted that Ortofons sound more like the digital than other carts) and what I've never heard anyone say is that an MP-500 sounds like the digital....(my MP-200 certainly doesnt sound anything like Digital, if anything it would be described as warm and layed back...same goes for every Grado I've owned, which includes the Gold and reference...)...which is great if thats what you are after...ie If the OP said Hi, I'm looking for something layed back with lots of colour I would have directed him to your choices....
A shibata is not a ML or a line contact they are different the Shibata was made in the 70's for quad totally different cut to a modern ML or line contact and lasts a lot less. Also what carts do you have at home to make these comparisons?
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 13 Jan 2019 14:17

A shibata is not a ML or a line contact they are different the Shibata was made in the 70's for quad totally different cut to a modern ML or line contact and lasts a lot less. Also what carts do you have at home to make these comparisons?
Chris
From Sound Smith....You can let them know they are wrong....

Then, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Rosewood » 13 Jan 2019 18:07

Shibata not line contact ... wears quickly? Read this:
https://www.ortofon.com/media/14912/eve ... _types.pdf
R.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 23:48

countingteeth wrote:
13 Jan 2019 14:17
A shibata is not a ML or a line contact they are different the Shibata was made in the 70's for quad totally different cut to a modern ML or line contact and lasts a lot less. Also what carts do you have at home to make these comparisons?
Chris
From Sound Smith....You can let them know they are wrong....

Then, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes.
Soundsmith are being misleading and yes it is not correct. As the link quoted from Ortofon says the Shibata was developed on the 70's for quad. Microlinear and similar line contact profiles were developed much later and have longer thinner contact areas and they wear slower than Shibata. See this link where Audio Technics quote 1000 hours for Microlinear and 800 for Shibata, this is due to Shibata having a smaller contact area so it will wear both the record and itself more.
https://eu.audio-technica.com/cartridge ... /AT-VM95ML
If you are not replaying quad there is no point in using a Shibata, problem is Shibata ( name) sounds cool way better than line contact or ML but it is an old profile with no gain over ML or line contact not for 2 channel anyway and quad is basically dead anyway as a format.
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jan 2019 23:59

Read this thread too.. viewtopic.php?t=22894
Shibata is not the be all ans end all stylus shape..
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by countingteeth » 14 Jan 2019 10:38

cafe latte wrote:
13 Jan 2019 23:48
countingteeth wrote:
13 Jan 2019 14:17
A shibata is not a ML or a line contact they are different the Shibata was made in the 70's for quad totally different cut to a modern ML or line contact and lasts a lot less. Also what carts do you have at home to make these comparisons?
Chris
From Sound Smith....You can let them know they are wrong....

Then, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes.

Soundsmith are being misleading and yes it is not correct.

As the link quoted from Ortofon says the Shibata was developed on the 70's for quad. Microlinear and similar line contact profiles were developed much later and have longer thinner contact areas and they wear slower than Shibata.


See this link where Audio Technics quote 1000 hours for Microlinear and 800 for Shibata, this is due to Shibata having a smaller contact area so it will wear both the record and itself more.
https://eu.audio-technica.com/cartridge ... /AT-VM95ML

If you are not replaying quad there is no point in using a Shibata,
Did you read the Ortofon paper ? Record wear and better frequency response vs Conical's and Ellipticals.....
.

problem is Shibata ( name) sounds cool way better than line contact or ML but it is an old profile with no gain over ML or line contact not for 2 channel anyway and quad is basically dead anyway as a format.
Chris
I dont agree. I just think you are making a category error and Soundsmith isn't.


My claim is simple. There are a number of categories of styli, eg Conical, Elliptical and Line contact. of which Fine Line (2M Bronze) and Shibata (HANA SH) are members of the Line Contact category, where Line contact is defined as "a small contact surface at the horizontal and a wider one on the vertical [from the Ortofon document that god knows why, you think supports your position]".

This is entirely consistent with the Ortofon and Soundsmith articles wrt to the Shibata, and that Ortofon painfully points out that the first Line contact was "invented" by Shibata, and now bears his name.

Wear rates, how cool the name sounds and/or initial design intent are all irrelevant in determining if a Shibata belongs in the category Line Contact.

ie Your arguments dont follow...

a. Shibata was developed for QUAD
b. QUAD was not successful
c. therefore Shibata is not a line contact.


a. Line contacts last the longest
b. Shibata is not the longest lasting stylus,
c. therefore the Shibata is not a line contact.....

PS : You can also stop straw maning me. I've never made the argument that the Shibata is the best line contact. Only that the Fine line and Shibata on the 2M and Hana SH are similar [in that they are both line contacts ! ] ....as opposed to the elliptical on the the HANA EH. ..... (Which you can note belongs in the different category of ellipticals if it wasnt plain enough for you. ]

I dont want to derail this thread anymore, and suggest you open up another thread if you want to debate this further.

For now, my suggestions to the OP stand, given they are made on the premise of "I'm happy with a 2M bronze but would like to explore Moving Coil on a budget"

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by cafe latte » 14 Jan 2019 11:43

countingteeth wrote:
14 Jan 2019 10:38
cafe latte wrote:
13 Jan 2019 23:48
countingteeth wrote:
13 Jan 2019 14:17


From Sound Smith....You can let them know they are wrong....

Then, there are the "fine line" styli, including standard Contact Line, as well as the more esoteric evolutions such as Shibata, Micro Line or Ridge, Optimized Contour Contact Line (Soundsmith) and so on. These are almost always nudes, for lowest possible mass. These designs have a sharper edge (radius) that play the record groove walls, which allows better high frequency reproduction (especially at the inner grooves where it is more difficult) resulting in lower distortion, better imaging, depth, and many other aspects of fine analog listening that are lost when the high frequencies are not resolved as well - usually by lower quality stylus shapes.

Soundsmith are being misleading and yes it is not correct.

As the link quoted from Ortofon says the Shibata was developed on the 70's for quad. Microlinear and similar line contact profiles were developed much later and have longer thinner contact areas and they wear slower than Shibata.


See this link where Audio Technics quote 1000 hours for Microlinear and 800 for Shibata, this is due to Shibata having a smaller contact area so it will wear both the record and itself more.
https://eu.audio-technica.com/cartridge ... /AT-VM95ML

If you are not replaying quad there is no point in using a Shibata,
Did you read the Ortofon paper ? Record wear and better frequency response vs Conical's and Ellipticals.....
.

problem is Shibata ( name) sounds cool way better than line contact or ML but it is an old profile with no gain over ML or line contact not for 2 channel anyway and quad is basically dead anyway as a format.
Chris
I dont agree. I just think you are making a category error and Soundsmith isn't.


My claim is simple. There are a number of categories of styli, eg Conical, Elliptical and Line contact. of which Fine Line (2M Bronze) and Shibata (HANA SH) are members of the Line Contact category, where Line contact is defined as "a small contact surface at the horizontal and a wider one on the vertical [from the Ortofon document that god knows why, you think supports your position]".

This is entirely consistent with the Ortofon and Soundsmith articles wrt to the Shibata, and that Ortofon painfully points out that the first Line contact was "invented" by Shibata, and now bears his name.

Wear rates, how cool the name sounds and/or initial design intent are all irrelevant in determining if a Shibata belongs in the category Line Contact.

ie Your arguments dont follow...

a. Shibata was developed for QUAD
b. QUAD was not successful
c. therefore Shibata is not a line contact.


a. Line contacts last the longest
b. Shibata is not the longest lasting stylus,
c. therefore the Shibata is not a line contact.....

PS : You can also stop straw maning me. I've never made the argument that the Shibata is the best line contact. Only that the Fine line and Shibata on the 2M and Hana SH are similar [in that they are both line contacts ! ] ....as opposed to the elliptical on the the HANA EH. ..... (Which you can note belongs in the different category of ellipticals if it wasnt plain enough for you. ]

I dont want to derail this thread anymore, and suggest you open up another thread if you want to debate this further.

For now, my suggestions to the OP stand, given they are made on the premise of "I'm happy with a 2M bronze but would like to explore Moving Coil on a budget"
You are starting to sound like you are a troll. Conical last longer than elliptical by 30% due to contact area for hif 2 channel there is no point in Shibata and it wars records and itself more than line contact, if you dont need quad there is no point. There are a lot of names of stylus and Shibata is not a line contact it is always Shibata line contact covers a number of profiles but Shibata is always distinguished and it is not so special. You really need to calm down, 7 posts...
Chris

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by Eggwin » 14 Jan 2019 15:32

Well thank you to those people who have helpfully given me recommendations or a direction to look at. Much appreciated.

As for the passionate discussing/derailing of 'this one is better than that because its got an xyz and this whitepaper says so' i must admit it is wasted on me. At some point i hope to get a better understanding of how Stylus/Cart work but for now as i said i was looking for recommendations based on users experience. I only assume MC as the next logical step as that certainly seems to be where the more expensive Carts are and the kind of Carts you find on the more expensive high end Turntables....

I am very happy with the sound of my Bronze on my Origin Live. But as someone else said i think in an earlier reply, this hobby means one is always looking to move up a level.

Again thank you for the suggestions i will go take a look.

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by raphaelmabo » 14 Jan 2019 16:36

It's easy to get caught in the stylus game :). But generators and body (or lack thereof) are important too. Take the Sumiko Songbird for example, it has quite a traditional, standard, elliptical of 0.3 x 0.7 mil. Not Shibata, not even Micro Line, a standard elliptical and this for 800 USD. Too much you say, for "only" an elliptical? Well, this cartridge is a new MC (no, I haven't been able to listen to it yet, but previous Sumiko MC's were very good) and with "open architecture design", which means it does not have a body, really. It is naked. :) It exposes 2/3 of the cartridge. The theory behind this is that a cartridge body adds mass, weight and resonances. So when you minimize this, you get a cleaner, richer sound and better contact with the groove.

If you fancy a MC, get a MC. Sumiko Blackbird or Songbird, Benz Ace or Microglider, Zyx R50 or R100, Goldring Eroica, are all very respectable MC cartridges. I personally like the Sumiko and Benz sound, Sumiko being more "rock'n roll" I would say (works for other music tastes too), faster sounding with fuller bass, still smooth. Benz more presence, soundscape, imagery. Zyx very musical, but less detailed. Don't know about the Eroica more than it is highly reviewed and has many fans...

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Re: Origin Live Silver with 2M Bronze... looking to move up to a MC cart....

Post by tom6to1 » 14 Jan 2019 18:41

I spent some time looking into this before moving up from an AT150MLx to an Ortofon Quintet Black as I too was curious about MC. (The Ortofon has a Shibata stylus). Since the cost of these cartridges is getting in the painful range, you want to spend some time making sure the compliance of your tonearm and the cartridge are compatible, and you want to check that the impedance and gain through your Pre-amp or SUT is a good match. Best choices will depend on what falls into the sweet spot for both of the above. With a Jelco 750D (the 10" arm) and Lounge Audio SUT and pre-amp, the best choices under $1300 CAD were Benz Micro-Glider and the Quintet black.