The importance of a level turntable, we should take notice.

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tobyKenobi
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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by tobyKenobi » 10 Jan 2018 12:05

One of the best things I bought for my TT was a shelf to attach it to the wall - old British house with uneven, unstable floorboards: footfall and levelling a nightmare. Even better, the one I bought (Flexson Vinylplay Shelf) was an exact match for my Rega and can be easily levelled by turning three knobs underneath the shelf. Sound improved immensely and I can (and did) jump up and down next to it with no problems!

Doug G.
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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Doug G. » 10 Jan 2018 21:45

wolfie62 wrote:Well, I would beg to differ that a dynamically balanced tonearm doesn't need a level plinth.

While a spring or electronic servo may provide accurate VTF, it WILL NOT offset the tonearm that wants to swing toward rest or toward the spindle because the entire turntable is not level.

The turntable that is not level will also have inaccurate anti-skate, since the tonearm has added force moving it sideways, either toward the spindle or away from the spindle.

My Denon DP45F is an example of a dynamically balanced tonearm. The counterweight is adjusted for neutral weight; the servo circuits add the VTF and antiskate as dialed in by the potentiometers on the plinth. It also has servos that control side to side motion. But none of those circuits are any good if the turntable is not level; you will still have a tonearm that has added forces either toward the spindle or away from it.

So, the idea that a dynamically balanced tonearm neutralizes all forces on the tonearm is pure fantasy. The only TTs that can play properly upside down or sideways are linear trackers. At least as far as I have seen.
No, it is not fantasy. It is science. Look it up.

Doug

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Spinner45 » 10 Jan 2018 22:41

wolfie62 wrote:Well, I would beg to differ that a dynamically balanced tonearm doesn't need a level plinth.

While a spring or electronic servo may provide accurate VTF, it WILL NOT offset the tonearm that wants to swing toward rest or toward the spindle because the entire turntable is not level.

The turntable that is not level will also have inaccurate anti-skate, since the tonearm has added force moving it sideways, either toward the spindle or away from the spindle.

My Denon DP45F is an example of a dynamically balanced tonearm. The counterweight is adjusted for neutral weight; the servo circuits add the VTF and antiskate as dialed in by the potentiometers on the plinth. It also has servos that control side to side motion. But none of those circuits are any good if the turntable is not level; you will still have a tonearm that has added forces either toward the spindle or away from it.

So, the idea that a dynamically balanced tonearm neutralizes all forces on the tonearm is pure fantasy. The only TTs that can play properly upside down or sideways are linear trackers. At least as far as I have seen.
Correcting your view, the Dual turntables used a dynamically balanced arm, balanced in all planes and can play in any direction, immune to the effects of gravity.
The tiny antiskate springs also are not effected by gravity.
However, some arms, like your Denon, while utlizing electronic control, are really not the same class. They are not balanced in all planes.
It all has to do with the arm pivot geometry and execution of design.

Doug G.
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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Doug G. » 11 Jan 2018 00:26

Yay! Spinner45 and I agree (I know sometimes we don't. Actually, I think it was just that one time about amplifier/component bandwidth and such)!

I used to sell those Denons back in eighties and I never did like the idea of the arm being controlled by electronics and servos. I'd rather depend on good old gravity and physics. As electronics age, they need to be tested/calibrated to see if they still work as designed. Gravity and other natural forces will always be the same, barring destruction of...well...everything.

BTW, I have also played my BIC tables at at least 45 degree angles too, just to see if they actually would, and they do. And, if you balance the arm so it floats, it will stay right where it is as you move the base/plinth around to any angle or, has been already said, upside down.

Doug

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Spinner45 » 11 Jan 2018 00:51

Doug G. wrote:Yay! Spinner45 and I agree (I know sometimes we don't. Actually, I think it was just that one time about amplifier/component bandwidth and such)!

I used to sell those Denons back in eighties and I never did like the idea of the arm being controlled by electronics and servos. I'd rather depend on good old gravity and physics. As electronics age, they need to be tested/calibrated to see if they still work as designed. Gravity and other natural forces will always be the same, barring destruction of...well...everything.

BTW, I have also played my BIC tables at at least 45 degree angles too, just to see if they actually would, and they do. And, if you balance the arm so it floats, it will stay right where it is as you move the base/plinth around to any angle or, has been already said, upside down.

Doug
I surely can't ALWAYS be in agreement with other people, even in real life.
And that's OK, it's normal.
But I find that when I "know" I'm correct in something, and someone else disagrees, I don't sweat it, because it's what "I" do that is important.
I hardly want to spit out wrong info for others to follow.
The internet's already full of that.

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by audiopile » 11 Jan 2018 02:49

Despite having set up a LOT of turntables - this is a oldie but badie - every couple of years i will tie myself in knots because I'm trying to "tune in" one of my tables . And will finally realize that (yet again) I have neglected to check that the table is level.

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Wimbo » 11 Jan 2018 04:53

Do what you want with your Dynamically Balanced tonearms, but for me regardless, I prefer to have my table level.

Doug G.
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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Doug G. » 11 Jan 2018 05:56

The original point of dynamic balancing was so you didn't have to have the table perfectly level. It doesn't hurt to, however, and statically balanced tables MUST have the table level for accurate setup.

It's just nice having a table you can just set on a surface without worrying about fiddling around with leveling it.

Doug

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Tinkaroo » 11 Jan 2018 10:20

It seems that it is important to know the limitations of whatever turntable design you are using, and that for those with statically balanced arms being level is critically important.

I think that even with a dynamically balanced design, it should also be "reasonably level" even if it will still play OK, since they were designed to play on a horizontal shelf. There are support springs, bearings, etc. that work best when reasonably level.

But with such a design you wouldn't necessarily require a spirit level, since it isn't as critical to be perfectly level. Having said that, I see lots of examples where someone has hung a picture, or a shelf that is very obviously off level! :lol:

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by audiopile » 11 Jan 2018 16:12

Unfortunately I'm sadly challenged when it comes to getting things level by eye. I bought a Craftsman #48292 10in. laser level a while ago - actually bought a second one that is my spare in a box (I find it that useful/convenient) . Take matt off turntable -place level on platter and then turn platter thru 90 degrees. The advantage this device has is it's display is large enough for my ohld Iez to read and it can be viewed from several angles -important since my turntables are set up inside four compartments within SWMBO'd cabinet. I can leave dustcovers on while I do this. Very quick -very accurate.I also find that 3"X5" index cards are useful to build stacks under TT feet - somewhat easier and still repeatable rather than attempting to work with back feet that may be a challenge to get at.

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Ghaasl » 11 Jan 2018 17:11

When I got my Pioneer, I leveled it with a Starrett model 98 precision level. Probably overkill, but I didn’t have a standard torpedo available to use (I had inadvertently left it stuck to a steel column on a job site). So, I can say that my TT is level within .001” over the span of 8 inches.

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by audiopile » 11 Jan 2018 18:10

Ya got me beat by two zero's -the Craftsman only goes down to tenths !

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take notice.

Post by orsib » 26 May 2019 09:30

Hello.

I have a Technics SL-J300R and I am wondering what to level.

The platter, the plinth or the lid (so the tonearm section? When I level the platter the rest of the turntable is not really in level. See attached photo (lower level is the platter, upper is the top of the chassis, so the tonearm, although the photo is suggesting something different, but the platter is spot on).
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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take noti

Post by Solist » 26 May 2019 12:37

Facelift3 wrote:
09 Jan 2018 22:46
Doug, This sounds interesting, please explain the difference between statically and dynamically balanced tables.
Dynamically balanced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO-n-cbatwg

For leveling, put a spirit level on top of the 45 adapter.

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Re: The importance of a level turntable, we should take notice.

Post by lenjack » 26 May 2019 12:59

There have been numerous turntables over the years tat could be played at an angle. In fact, some makers used to run ads, showing that there units would play upside down. They had spring adjusted stylus force.