Sibilance is driving me crazy!

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mythrenegade
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Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by mythrenegade » 13 Dec 2017 04:22

I spent a lot of time with a protractor and could never get rid of sibilance on Peter Gabriel’s So. On this site everyone says that album simply has it. Ok, fine. But now I’m listening to Harry Belefonte at Carnegie Hall. Wonderful performance, but it sounds a bit like “all I want for Christmas is my two front teeth” much of the time.

This is driving me crazy! Do I need a different protractor (using Baerwald)? How do I make this go away once and for all???

Garrard DD131 + Nagaoka MP-110

Joel

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by JDJX » 13 Dec 2017 05:01

From a review of the MP-110 ......

".......The MP-110 reveals a sweet midrange, although we'd like some more bass weight to support its light and breezy character. Treble needs more refinement
The treble is also a touch edgy and not quite as refined as some closely priced rivals.....".

So, perhaps it's a cartridge issue ?
"A touch edgy" is certainly open to interpretation.

There is nothing wrong with the Baerwald.
It's what I use and have absolutely no sibilant or IGD issues. :)

BTW, at around a $100 price point, there are probably only a few cartridges that will eliminate sibilant and IGD completely.
One is the Shure M97xE properly installed.
Yeah, it's no secret that I am partial to that cartridge. :)

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by mythrenegade » 13 Dec 2017 06:12

The weird thing is that it’s not on every record. I took it off and compared it length wise to my AT-71e in another head shell, and it was shorter by a couple of mm, so I made that adjustment. It sounds better now but still not right on the Belefonte record.

On the other hand Trick of the Tale by Genesis sounds fantastic. Absolutely rich and lovely.

This is the frustrating side of vinyl.

Joel

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by Ender Wiggin » 13 Dec 2017 10:31

"So" is absolutely famous for the sibilance! There is nothing or a very little to do, it will be always there. This to say I wouldn't test eventual sibilance problems on that record.
Anyway, you could try to work on the VTA. Tail up or tail down may Help in modifiyng the situation.
Bye

Luca

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by Slavikcc » 13 Dec 2017 14:31

mythrenegade wrote:I spent a lot of time with a protractor and could never get rid of sibilance on Peter Gabriel’s So. On this site everyone says that album simply has it. Ok, fine. But now I’m listening to Harry Belefonte at Carnegie Hall. Wonderful performance, but it sounds a bit like “all I want for Christmas is my two front teeth” much of the time.

This is driving me crazy! Do I need a different protractor (using Baerwald)? How do I make this go away once and for all???

Garrard DD131 + Nagaoka MP-110

Joel
Try using another cartridge with a finer stylus shape like say a Micro Line, Fine Line, or Shibata. Some of my records that has sibilance on an elliptical is definitely mitigated on my Ortofon 2M Bronze with a fine line stylus. As a warning, any cartridge with those shapes are very picky with its alignment.

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by jdjohn » 13 Dec 2017 15:46

Effective mass at the tip has a lot to do with it. Cantilever construction makes the biggest difference IME. Materials used, diameter, and shape (tapered is best) all contribute towards lowering effective mass, along with nude vs bonded diamond mounting. The best cure for sibilance and/or IGD is a better stylus.

'Rich and lovely' is easier to play back than a recording that has lots of dynamics and transients, and live recordings can be especially tough to get consistent recording levels...vocals in particular.

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by tketcham » 13 Dec 2017 16:06

Hi, Joel,

You may be hearing resonance distortion from a tonearm-cartridge mismatch rather than alignment problems. The Nagaoka ML-110 is a low compliance, fairly lightweight cartridge and the tonearm on the Garrard DD131 appears to be fairly lightweight as well. You might try adding weight to the headshell. I've used Soundsmith EZ-mount headshell screws to fix a resonance problem but there are many ways to add weight to a headshell. Do a web search and you'll have plenty to read about. '-)

Regards,
Tom

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by EdAInWestOC » 15 Dec 2017 14:01

It sounds like you need to select different gear.

There are many people who post about their experience with vinyl. You would tend to think that stuff like sibilance and IGD are things you have to live with. They are not.

First of all, you need to select a less fussy cartridge and a good quality tonearm. You also have to make sure the cartridge is aligned properly. There are many cartridges on the market that are supposed to be great performers but if you check their reputation, they are a real pain in the butt to setup and get running properly.

For instance: A lot of people love Grados but they tend to be problematic unless you select the proper associated gear. And then there are cartridges like Denons.

It has been my experience that Denon makes a cartridge that outperforms its asking price and has no fussy attributes. You could reject that description but ask around.

Great sound and no trouble...Denon is not alone and there are other cartridges. Ortofon makes some really fine cartridges that don't require a witch doctor to get running properly.

Ask around here and make sure you ask whether the owner has any trouble with IGD or sibilance. Many owners will omit some of the more esoteric tendencies of their cartridges.

Ask whether the cartridge requires certain phono preamps to sound their best or whether it works well with a wide range of preamps, tonearms and turntables. I went through a large number of cartridges before I settled on Denon cartridges. I used Denon cartridges for over 30 years with no issues.

I currently use an Ortofon cartridge and can recommend an Ortofon without hesitation.

Just make sure you ask whether the cartridge is fussy or whether its a trouble free cartridge that sound great and tracks well. You are not supposed to put up with the problems you describe.

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by tlscapital » 15 Dec 2017 14:39

That cartridge is rather low compliance indeed. So I strongly advise to do that test; add few coins (up to 5 grams and then more if needed) on your headshell with tape to allow them to pass the test, re-set your VTF and see if you still get the same sibilance issues or not on the same records.

Type: Moving permalloy
Cantilever: Lightweight aluminium alloy
Stylus: Superfine polished bonded elliptical diamond, 0.4 x 0.7 Mils
Mass: 6.5g
Output Voltage: 5mV (1KHz; 5cm/sec)
Frequency Response: 20Hz-20KHz
Channel Balance: >1.5dB (1KHz)
Channel Separation: >23dB (1KHz)
Rec Loading: 47 KOhms
Dynamic Compliance: 6×10-6 cm/dyne
Static Compliance: 18 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Tracking Force: 1.5-2.0g
Stylus replacement: Nagaoka JN-P100

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by P700DEE » 15 Dec 2017 15:20

Yes PG So does have some sibilance but you can mimimise it. To get a fair comparison play it on CD. If you get more with your turntable/cartridge combination then you either have alignment issues, incompatibility or just that your turntable is not up to the job. If you still find it intrusive on CD perhaps your amp/speaker combination emphasises it. Better kit certainly suffers less :wink:

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by mythrenegade » 15 Dec 2017 21:05

tketcham wrote:Hi, Joel,

You may be hearing resonance distortion from a tonearm-cartridge mismatch rather than alignment problems. The Nagaoka ML-110 is a low compliance, fairly lightweight cartridge and the tonearm on the Garrard DD131 appears to be fairly lightweight as well. You might try adding weight to the headshell. I've used Soundsmith EZ-mount headshell screws to fix a resonance problem but there are many ways to add weight to a headshell. Do a web search and you'll have plenty to read about. '-)

Regards,
Tom
I don’t understand this.

The MP-110 suggests a tracking force of 1.6-2.0g IIRC. Using the nifty stylus gauge I’m at 2 grams. It feels like more weight would be a very bad idea. If I was to put a penny on top and then use the counterweight to set the tracking force at 2g what would I actually accomplish?

Joel

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by mythrenegade » 15 Dec 2017 21:06

I also have no idea what the dynamic compliance numbers mean. Happy to learn though...

Joel

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by Cloudbase » 15 Dec 2017 21:56

I don’t understand this.

The MP-110 suggests a tracking force of 1.6-2.0g IIRC. Using the nifty stylus gauge I’m at 2 grams. It feels like more weight would be a very bad idea. If I was to put a penny on top and then use the counterweight to set the tracking force at 2g what would I actually accomplish?

Joel
Think of it as a pivot that when you add more weight at the cartridge end and then counterbalanced makes the cartridge want to swing about around that pivot more thereby putting more movement or force into the stylus so changing the dynamics of the cartridge.
That's my take on it anyway.

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by tlscapital » 15 Dec 2017 22:31

mythrenegade wrote:
I don’t understand this.

The MP-110 suggests a tracking force of 1.6-2.0g IIRC. Using the nifty stylus gauge I’m at 2 grams. It feels like more weight would be a very bad idea. If I was to put a penny on top and then use the counterweight to set the tracking force at 2g what would I actually accomplish?

Joel
2 grams is what I'd suggest. I'm most of the time on the higher end of the recommended VTF but I understand those who prefer it lighter. Heavier has always been my ear favorite. But if you're thinking to protect your records by playing them with lighter VTF... best not to play the records at all maybe...

A heavier effective mass tonearm will have a stronger static force. And that all low compliant cartridges do demand in order to perform at their best. This make the low compliant cantilever "work" more as it should. And it's the rule; low compliant cartridges = heavy effective mass tonearm. And vice versa.

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Re: Sibilance is driving me crazy!

Post by mythrenegade » 15 Dec 2017 22:49

Interesting. So what is a more appropriate cartridge for this table and arm?

Joel

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