Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

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ehtoo
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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by ehtoo » 07 Dec 2015 03:24

sec4aa wrote:I just don't see how a 560mm belt would work for a TD125, but I can work with a 538mm...at least from a geometrical point of view. Thorens belts are a bit short at 520mm and after the now "normal stretching" they can go up to around 530mm after months of usage. I can see how a 538mm OL belt might fit the bill without any stretching required, but they must be a bit stiffer than the elastic rubber Thorens belts. At this length, you need all the grip you can get; no talcum powder should be required. I think that a 520mm OL belt might tension the spindle and the bearing too much...I have a problem if the OL belts are not working well ensuring the 33.3 rpm and I have a question about the MHCC 2.0...how big is the adjustment range? +/-0.3rpm? More? Less?
Sorry. talc is even recommended for Thorens belts. Have been since the 70's. Talcing belts is part of the maintenance regimen at the AnalogueDept. I wouldn't say the OL belt is stiffer, just made from a different material but just as elastic. I do have to stretch the belt to fit from the inner platter to the spindle. And grip is just fine.

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by rkay5 » 01 Apr 2016 22:59

Well this is a older post get's new life.I never send back the 538mm OL belt.I'm now using it with a the new Mober DC motor and power supply made the Hercules maker and designer.With the new motor I have used first the thorens belt,one of Joel's and Linn Lp12 belt and the OL belt.
With all the belt my TD150 runs at the right speed because of the power supply but with all sound quality is not the same the best sound quality is with the OL belt and lowest wow tested With the Dr. Feickert PlatterSpeed for Android-wow(DIN IEC 386 2-sigma):+/-0.07%(notch) wow(DIN IEC 386 dynamic): +/-0.07%(notch) These are the lowest wow number I have gotten.
The OL belt and Mober DC motor power supply are great together my TD150 has never played music better.I'm glad I didn't send back the belt also.
3487834877

Danilo_
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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by Danilo_ » 29 May 2016 17:29

The above got me going.
My Original Thorens belt (as in THE same one that came with my Td150/2 table I bought new in '72) Is still working well.. despite all claims.
Although it is recently having some problems in the shift to 45 .. which I Never use :wink: . Folded Length is 'seemingly' 275 mm best of my measure abilities.
Speed is 33 on my Tachometer. Belt does Not fall off the inner latter.
Recently bought a 'Guaranteed Correct' repro Thorens belt. No not from the Dealer tho :oops:
It's length is 255 ~ 258 mm (Quite stretchy) all other dimensions are correct. Fits works fine but was concerned about loading the Motor bearings.. Should I be??
Considering buying a Thorens labelled belt from a Thorens dealer (http://www.qaudio.com/).. 2X the price though... Should I?

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 29 May 2016 22:38

ehtoo wrote:My belt continues to please. As mentioned before, I've installed the OL belt on my TD160B with stock motor. The table is connected to a Music Hall Speed Controller 2.0 with the Thorens speed setting at 45 RPM. When I followed the suggestions by putting talcum powder on the belt, it tended to slip off the spindle. I washed off the talc with some water and problem solved.

At least on the TD160 there have not been any problems. In fact fidelity of the TT has improved with quieter backgrounds and a little more air around instruments. Bass is less bloated. I've gone back to the two other belts I have - a OS Thorens (can't call it NOS as was used for 6 mos) and another after market belt to compare them against the OL. The OL belt was significantly better. What has surprised me more than anything else, is that a belt can make a difference.

Quit frankly, I don't care if it measures a little longer if the results are this good. Most belts for the Thorens are too short which can cause a lot of problems with the motor spindle and added noise. Joel alerted everyone to that fact. I've found myself stretching every belt I've used.
Owner of a TD145, 146 or 147 clothed with a TD160 Super chassis and plinth mounted with an SME 3009 improved with fixed head shell bought as such. I switched to the "vintage" TT when I acquired my first Denon DL-102 'true MONO' pick-up some 5 years ago.

I collect and play mainly original 6T's & 7T's USA 45rpm singles and to give them some justice, I decided to dive into the "geek"world of Thorens and SME to do the right, the better or suited conversions, changes and upgrades.

On a narrow budget, I started doing that some 6 months ago buying this then that and mounted them one by one to evaluate every step accordingly. Now I'm rather flattered with the whole set-up. I am undergoing the few last details before considering myself done... if ever.

I am currently running the TT with Thaker belts and am pleased with them. But I would consider any other small changes to improve my already much improved sound.

So my questions are;
- Would you believe that the OL belt could be a significant improvement with vintage 45s who are less precise, deep and complex than most LPs (your reviews) ?
- Did you meet any issues in the change of speed with the OL belt ?

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tele88 » 11 Jun 2016 16:42

Concerning replacement belts for Thorens I did some speed spectrum measurements between a Thorens original , Thakker and Origin live and Ebay belt belt. As can be seen give the OLbelt give the worst results +1,4 % speed , wow and 100Hz motor vibration seen as the two sidebands.Ref.signal 3 Khz from a testrecord.
Scan_20160611 (2).jpg
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Danilo_
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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by Danilo_ » 11 Jun 2016 18:59

Speed variations would suggest a varying belt thickness. Which is odd as it's simply Mfg tolerance to shoot for.
More likely / possibly a thickness change as result of stretching.
This 'testing' was thru Tones?
Did you try/putting an Optical Tach to it??
That might reveal measurable RPM issues...more so than your system's ability to output an input tone

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 11 Jun 2016 19:24

[quote="tele88"]Concerning replacement belts for Thorens I did some speed spectrum measurements between a Thorens original , Thakker and Origin live and Ebay belt belt. As can be seen give the OLbelt give the worst results +1,4 % speed , wow and 100Hz motor vibration seen as the two sidebands.Ref.signal 3 Khz from a test record.

Thanks a lot for those measurements and objective conclusions on those 4 distinctive belts tele88. Considering just that, I should stick with my Thaker's for the money (6 to 3 for the price of 1) as for it's technical characteristics so close to the real Thorens brand ones.

Still, I would like to hear how in real the OL belts can alter the sound out of the speakers. Since apparently only a trial will provide me with a definitive conclusion, I'll buy me one of those OL belt once I'll be out of my Thaker belts. Since I'm trying to go "Ri-Fi" and not so much "Hi-Fi", it could be an interesting "expensive" piece of "strange" rubber trial. It costs 4 times the price of 1 Thaker belt and lasts only 2 (?) times longer expectingly...

I can believe (aspire) that on some system (mono) and with some records (like my old 45's) the improvement or gain in sound definition can actually over-rule the negative counter-parts like some stated here above and so "justify" it's money investment. I'll let you know what it did to me on time.

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by ehtoo » 12 Jun 2016 03:39

tlscapital wrote:
ehtoo wrote:My belt continues to please. As mentioned before, I've installed the OL belt on my TD160B with stock motor. The table is connected to a Music Hall Speed Controller 2.0 with the Thorens speed setting at 45 RPM. When I followed the suggestions by putting talcum powder on the belt, it tended to slip off the spindle. I washed off the talc with some water and problem solved.

At least on the TD160 there have not been any problems. In fact fidelity of the TT has improved with quieter backgrounds and a little more air around instruments. Bass is less bloated. I've gone back to the two other belts I have - a OS Thorens (can't call it NOS as was used for 6 mos) and another after market belt to compare them against the OL. The OL belt was significantly better. What has surprised me more than anything else, is that a belt can make a difference.

Quit frankly, I don't care if it measures a little longer if the results are this good. Most belts for the Thorens are too short which can cause a lot of problems with the motor spindle and added noise. Joel alerted everyone to that fact. I've found myself stretching every belt I've used.
Owner of a TD145, 146 or 147 clothed with a TD160 Super chassis and plinth mounted with an SME 3009 improved with fixed head shell bought as such. I switched to the "vintage" TT when I acquired my first Denon DL-102 'true MONO' pick-up some 5 years ago.

I collect and play mainly original 6T's & 7T's USA 45rpm singles and to give them some justice, I decided to dive into the "geek"world of Thorens and SME to do the right, the better or suited conversions, changes and upgrades.

On a narrow budget, I started doing that some 6 months ago buying this then that and mounted them one by one to evaluate every step accordingly. Now I'm rather flattered with the whole set-up. I am undergoing the few last details before considering myself done... if ever.

I am currently running the TT with Thaker belts and am pleased with them. But I would consider any other small changes to improve my already much improved sound.

So my questions are;
- Would you believe that the OL belt could be a significant improvement with vintage 45s who are less precise, deep and complex than most LPs (your reviews) ?
- Did you meet any issues in the change of speed with the OL belt ?
I'm not sure why you feel older 45's are less precise. In fact, I've found they can be far more dynamic than their LP brethren. So I really can't speak to specific improvements for 45's over LP's. The improvement is noticed across the board.

I should mention, my heavily modified Thorens is used exclusively for mono playback. It sports an Origin Live Encounter tonearm and a Miyajima BE mono cartridge so it too gets a lot of use for 45's from the same time period you enjoy.

IMHO, the OL belt has firmed up the bass, the image is more focused and there is better extension in the highs. I've switched back and forth between an original Thorens belt, the Joel belt and the OL belt for the comparison. I believe the difference might be in that the OL belt probably reduces some of the vibrations transmitted from the motor. They are supposed to be made from a proprietary material - not wholly rubber, rather a composite material of some kind.

I have never used a Thakkar belt so I'm not qualified to comment. If they are the same as the Joel belt, they're probably pretty good.

Issues with wow and flutter are usually caused by drive system tolerances from belt thickness, tension, slippage, creep, pulley-step ratios, warm-up times (belts, bearings, motors) and drag forces (from different mats, clamps and the stylus. Also there's the issue of electrical fluctuations from which we all suffer. That's why I went with a Music Hall PSU which, stabilizes the speed.

Now, as to changing the speed on the Thorens TT, the Thorens has always had issues with the belt slipping when changing between 33 1/3 & 45. If you're not familiar with the Music Hall Speed Control, which I presently use, the unit is a PSU into which the TT is plugged. There are the standard 2 speeds which you select with the push of a button. The belt is left on the 45RPM motor spindle permanently so you don't have that annoying issue of the belt slipping off the motor spindle. It is worth a look.

Mind you, it tends to suffer a smidgen of cogging at the 33 1/3 speed. I'm presently considering the Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU & Roadrunner Tachometer which offers greater frequency stability and the ability to see real time digital speed indication of the platter rotation under any condition.

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tele88 » 12 Jun 2016 10:39

tlscapital wrote:
tele88 wrote:Concerning replacement belts for Thorens I did some speed spectrum measurements between a Thorens original , Thakker and Origin live and Ebay belt belt. As can be seen give the OLbelt give the worst results +1,4 % speed , wow and 100Hz motor vibration seen as the two sidebands.Ref.signal 3 Khz from a test record.

Thanks a lot for those measurements and objective conclusions on those 4 distinctive belts tele88. Considering just that, I should stick with my Thaker's for the money (6 to 3 for the price of 1) as for it's technical characteristics so close to the real Thorens brand ones.

Still, I would like to hear how in real the OL belts can alter the sound out of the speakers. Since apparently only a trial will provide me with a definitive conclusion, I'll buy me one of those OL belt once I'll be out of my Thaker belts. Since I'm trying to go "Ri-Fi" and not so much "Hi-Fi", it could be an interesting "expensive" piece of "strange" rubber trial. It costs 4 times the price of 1 Thaker belt and lasts only 2 (?) times longer expectingly...

I can believe (aspire) that on some system (mono) and with some records (like my old 45's) the improvement or gain in sound definition can actually over-rule the negative counter-parts like some stated here above and so "justify" it's money investment. I'll let you know what it did to me on time.

Changing the sound always happens if the speed changed that happens with the variation in effective thickness from the belt , see my measurements. The thickness from the OL belt varies see picture it has no even structure .
WP_20160612_11_26_14_Pro 1_bewerkt-1.jpg
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tele88
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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tele88 » 12 Jun 2016 10:44

Danilo_ wrote:Speed variations would suggest a varying belt thickness. Which is odd as it's simply Mfg tolerance to shoot for.
More likely / possibly a thickness change as result of stretching.
This 'testing' was thru Tones?
Did you try/putting an Optical Tach to it??
That might reveal measurable RPM issues...more so than your system's ability to output an input tone
Yes testing with thru tones this way off testing is the closed way to get a insight what happens a rpm meter shows only bigger rpm issues not the wow .

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 12 Jun 2016 12:20

ehtoo wrote:I'm not sure why you feel older 45's are less precise. In fact, I've found they can be far more dynamic than their LP brethren. So I really can't speak to specific improvements for 45's over LP's. The improvement is noticed across the board.
Well first all, some of my 45's do suffer from "unperfected" mastering on the tape and then the mastering for the matrix/plates was done in the most awkward condition apparently and before finishing of with the visual/playing condition the vintage record that lived a long rough life, the quality of the plastic used comes in strong position on what it gives willingly as unwillingly ! I collect as much majors (who accordingly are in general of good to fantastic standards) as independent labels (who's standards vary a lot and a lot !).

I "collect" in the sense that I want original copies only. Some very rare as some not ! I don't collect in the sense that I don't keep what I don't like or don't play with pleasure even if it's supposed to fit in my collection. But I want to do them justice and dish out the best they can. And I'm reaching there. I don't hear "snap, crackle and pop" anymore (so used to that), but I still have issues with distortions on the highs and don't like the filters to end-up with a mushy-muddy sound fueled with too much bass.

LP's don't have as much those issues generally that the 45's have. Even if the 45's have a better dynamic, they require a specific set-up to bring out best of them. And my set-up is build, converted and improved in that sense. That is why I was referring to 45's as "less precise" in Hi-Fi definition. That is also why I'm heading 'Ri(ght)-Fi(delity)' and not 'Hi(gh)-Fi(delity) to suit my dear ol' records needs.

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by tlscapital » 12 Jun 2016 12:36

ehtoo wrote:IMHO, the OL belt has firmed up the bass, the image is more focused and there is better extension in the highs. I've switched back and forth between an original Thorens belt, the Joel belt and the OL belt for the comparison. I believe the difference might be in that the OL belt probably reduces some of the vibrations transmitted from the motor. They are supposed to be made from a proprietary material - not wholly rubber, rather a composite material of some kind.
Yes, it's comments like these that make me want to try the OL belt one day soon. Even if the Thaker ones are good (I have and still will recommend them), they tend to "loose" quickly and then the Thorens pulley can't handle the speed change back from 33 to 45 rpm to at one time just stay on 33 rpm ! So the last "expensive" conversion I might do on my modified Thorens TD Super -Duper is indeed to switch to a PSU !

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by ehtoo » 12 Jun 2016 14:52

tele88 wrote:
tlscapital wrote:
tele88 wrote:Concerning replacement belts for Thorens I did some speed spectrum measurements between a Thorens original , Thakker and Origin live and Ebay belt belt. As can be seen give the OLbelt give the worst results +1,4 % speed , wow and 100Hz motor vibration seen as the two sidebands.Ref.signal 3 Khz from a test record.

Thanks a lot for those measurements and objective conclusions on those 4 distinctive belts tele88. Considering just that, I should stick with my Thaker's for the money (6 to 3 for the price of 1) as for it's technical characteristics so close to the real Thorens brand ones.

Still, I would like to hear how in real the OL belts can alter the sound out of the speakers. Since apparently only a trial will provide me with a definitive conclusion, I'll buy me one of those OL belt once I'll be out of my Thaker belts. Since I'm trying to go "Ri-Fi" and not so much "Hi-Fi", it could be an interesting "expensive" piece of "strange" rubber trial. It costs 4 times the price of 1 Thaker belt and lasts only 2 (?) times longer expectingly...

I can believe (aspire) that on some system (mono) and with some records (like my old 45's) the improvement or gain in sound definition can actually over-rule the negative counter-parts like some stated here above and so "justify" it's money investment. I'll let you know what it did to me on time.

Changing the sound always happens if the speed changed that happens with the variation in effective thickness from the belt , see my measurements. The thickness from the OL belt varies see picture it has no even structure .
WP_20160612_11_26_14_Pro 1_bewerkt-1.jpg
That appears to be a join. I looked at mine and don't have this noticeable problem at this point. OL does recommend checking out each side of the belt to determine which side offers the best performance. I did this and didn't notice a difference but, others might. Again, it might have something to do with the outboard PSU.

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by Danilo_ » 14 Jun 2016 21:21

I bought my Td150/2 in '72.. New.
It STILL has it's OEM belt.
Yesss.. 44 Years old and it works "fine".. Rpm is exact with My bespoke electronic Tachometer and there's NO slipping.
Only in the last year has it balked at shifting to 45 (evidence of a stretching belt)
No matter.. I don't play MY 45's and the speed switch was purely for belt test.
Still, it is on it's last legs.. Likely will need fit the replacement one, bought a spare with the TT .. in a few years.
Still amazed at all the issues and concerns over belts.
Gotta laugh at the replace it annually or bi-annually admonishments.

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Re: Origine Live upgrade belt for Thorens

Post by Danilo_ » 14 Jun 2016 21:27

tele88 wrote:
Danilo_ wrote:Speed variations would suggest a varying belt thickness. Which is odd as it's simply Mfg tolerance to shoot for.
More likely / possibly a thickness change as result of stretching.
This 'testing' was thru Tones?
Did you try/putting an Optical Tach to it??
That might reveal measurable RPM issues...more so than your system's ability to output an input tone
Yes testing with thru tones this way off testing is the closed way to get a insight what happens a rpm meter shows only bigger rpm issues not the wow .

No my friend.. you are 'Testing' your reproduction chain's ability to reproduce a tone.
Which can (is?) be entirely different to the TT's actual/precise RPM.
That said there's benefit in using the setup that lets Your gear recreate the input tone as accurately as it's capable of.