decoupling platter

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mik666
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decoupling platter

Post by mik666 » 30 May 2019 14:28

Hey all
has anyone tried (and found) favorable results by decoupling the platters on a TD160 (or its variants) - i see that one of the UK based thorens aftermarket "upgrade" suppliers sells small specialized rubber (or some such hybrid things) to put between the platter/subplatter that raises it by a little bit ( 1 mm if memory serves me correct) - i have a few left extra herbies thin grunge buster dots that are about 1/32 ( so about .8 mm) that i am debating on slicing up and trying it but curious id anyone has experimented with this and what if anything they found
thanks!
m

markcass
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by markcass » 30 May 2019 18:47

Hi

I have those UK-made dots - they didn't work for me, as they just seemed to 'decouple' the music a little with no compensating benefits I could hear.

HTH

Mark

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Re: decoupling platter

Post by mik666 » 31 May 2019 14:16

interesting - thx Mark!

noisefreq
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by noisefreq » 31 May 2019 14:54

I would be real skeptical about "improving" on the TD160 platter.

user510
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by user510 » 31 May 2019 22:44

I've experimented with this idea by cutting out a donut of water color paper and placing that between the platters. As noted above it does raise the outer platter by the thickness of the material.

Did I hear any improvements? Can't say that I did. Neither did It do any sonic harm as far as I could tell.

Actually, this idea of contending with a ringing outer platter is more a problem of human psychology than it is to do with any perceivable sonic reality. Even though the outer platter may ring when you tap it lightly with a foreign object, that does not mean that under the conditions of playing a record that the outer platter will ring. The process will not excite the platter into ringing! We're chasing shadows here.

-Steve

DT999
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by DT999 » 01 Jun 2019 04:34

Give it a go and see, if you have the dots anyway it isn't going to cost you anything and it is easily reversible.
As I understand it the idea is more to decouple the platter to stop the transfer of bearing noise rather than to stop the platter 'ringing', the platter mat should do that.

tlscapital
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by tlscapital » 01 Jun 2019 11:50

user510 wrote:
31 May 2019 22:44
I've experimented with this idea by cutting out a donut of water color paper and placing that between the platters. As noted abov it does raise the outer platter by the thickness of the material.

Did I hear any improvements? Can't say that I did. Neither did It do any sonic harm as far as I could tell.
To hear is one thing but to measure is another. During my long budget penny counting step-by-step tweaking journey on my Thorens TD160'E', I've come to dampen the chassis and sub-chassis to no sonic improvement/changes what so ever. To my surprise as it is a classic universally acclaimed 'improvement'. Did nowt 4 me :(

Even though I was told after that this very and specific 'improvement' if not 'heard' can be measured. I bowed that this "subjectively" improvement if unheard was actually one "objectively" at least. And I've done many such tweaks on my Thorens turntable and SME tonearm that I've come to reverse if proven unsatisfactory.

Many other tweaks in improvement I've kept hopefully. The "transient" sonic "signature" of the Thorens turntable suspended sub-chassis and SME tonearm coupled knife edge bearing is truly part of their build in design. And when the rest of the amplification signal allows that to show, it's undeniably another listening experience.

So if the dampening is not to be exaggerated on such turntable and tonearm to allow the "transient" frequencies to pass on through a "clear and neutral" amplification process to it's advantage, to avoid any "ringing" pollution/effect is rather crucial. These platter "decoupler" can prove to be beneficial for some system just as not for others.
user510 wrote:
31 May 2019 22:44
Actually, this idea of contending with a ringing outer platter is more a problem of human psychology than it is to do with any perceivable sonic reality. Even though the outer platter may ring when you tap it lightly with a foreign object, that does not mean that under the conditions of playing a record that the outer platter will ring. The process will not excite the platter into ringing! We're chasing shadows here.

-Steve
Well, I have come to understand that such sonic earabiliyty is really depending on both the phono gear "chain" combination, it's "build" and design in sonic "signature" with one ear's sensitivity and ability all together. And some say to prefer the cast alloy sub-platter... So I guess a difference is to be heard. Or is it... Not ? :?

Through my tweaking journey on my more than ever beloved "clear and neutral" amplification (leaving very little room for unnoticeable changes if ever) the most unexpected results occurred. Swapping my SME acrylic armboard for a wood one "muffled" my sound = bad. A vintage SME cast alloy armboard induced a "ringing" effect = bad again.

The "unglamorous" acrylic armboard got the upper hand on my system and so; remained. Where others seems to benefit else... Leaving me convinced that to swap my resin sub-platter for an alloy one for example wouldn't be necessarily an improvement on my set-up. Never forgetting that there is no absolute universal rule in the phono world !

Even though some seem to prefer them alloy sub-platters just like some seem also to prefer the TD150 and TD125 crossed two pieces sub-chassis structure. And others not. To decouple the alloy sub-platter from the platter is most likely depending on subjective preferences and objective measurements that are to be tested on different phono set-ups.

user510
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by user510 » 03 Jun 2019 20:17

To hear is one thing but to measure is another.
Yes. And therein lies the rub. How to measure. By what method?
It seems that the industry on the whole does not share their supposed methods of measurement. And this leads me to believe that they are using some industry standard measures as we might see reported in a magazine review, and also that they are relying heavily on their own subjective listening analysis, as do we all.

In my own journey I have made some crude signal to noise measures using the silent track on the HFN 001 test record in combination with a digital recorder , and then a free copy of Audacity to be used as analysis software. With this combination of 'stuff' I could get a frequency / amplitude plot of the recordings made. What it told me was the sum total of noise being generated at the stylus/groove interface and also drive train noise entering through the body of the tonearm and vibrating its pivots. But it was useful in making comparisons between different materials tried for a bearing thrust pad of an SP10 mkII I was playing with at the time. And that model of turntable is one of the most quiet running turntables ever produced!

But....to be more specific, to isolate measurements out to a particular component being modified, would require a different method.

Of course armboard materials are well noted to have obvious and apparent differences to be heard without using any other method of measure except your ears to hear you play the same records again. Tonearms are extremely sensitive, but some tonearms are more sensitive to external vibes while others are less so. Example; unipivot arms tend to be less affected by external vibes that reach the body of the tonearm through the armboard.

But to check for the difference between dots of damping material (or a sheet of material) placed between the inner platter/outer platter, I suppose, will be very different to isolate, except I suspect the simple signal to noise check I noted above might report some difference, if there is a difference.... Or we might just be chasing after shadows in the firelight.

Do I sound tired? Perhaps I might.
-Steve

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Re: decoupling platter

Post by tlscapital » 05 Jun 2019 20:27

noisefreq wrote:
31 May 2019 14:54
I would be real skeptical about "improving" on the TD160 platter.
But I did. Gave mine a chrome coating. Real improvement at first sight :P

mik666
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Re: decoupling platter

Post by mik666 » 18 Jun 2019 14:54

Hey all
an update on dampening the platter - i tried dampening/isolating the platter as mentioned with some small bits of a herbie's grungebuster dot (cut in 4 bits) and honestly i couldn't hear any differences using both a Denon Dl110 and a AT 740ml cartridges (i could here a tremendous differences between the carts of course).
ive decided to chuck them out
i also tried one of the big rubber bands around the rim of the platter and there may be a very slight discernible reduction of background but it seemed more noticeable using the Denon - though i have to admit the beers had hit the 5+ mark so it may of just been them, though i am going to keep the rubber band on for the time being
best
Mike

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Re: decoupling platter

Post by user510 » 24 Jun 2019 03:35

http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp ... d125_f.jpg
I especially like that above TD125 more than most others I've seen. And that big outer rubber platter band, whether it helps or not, just looks like some cool business :) (.....and now we venture into the psychology of the listener. If you like the appearance more, maybe you enjoy the listening more :wink:)

Btw, the TD125 isn't mine, but a fellow enthusiast in Germany.

-Steve

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