Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

music box
Post Reply
terzinator
member
member
United States of America
Posts: 76
Joined: 07 Dec 2018 03:54
Location: Minnesota

Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by terzinator » 08 Mar 2019 20:15

OK, trying to find out the best practice for this on my TD-150. (Man I wish the search included three-letter words like "Oil" and "TD-150"!)

Anyway, for quantity, I've seen anything from "a few drops" to "1 ml" to "fill the well halfway"

This is the best procedure I've found, which comes from Analog Dept:
  • Fill the well halfway up prior to assembling the shaft.
  • When the bearing shaft is installed and finally floats down to the thrust plate, there is some small over-flow of oil out the top of the housing. This lets us know we have oil all the way up. As wanted.
  • Personally, I like Phil Woods Tenacious oil for lubing this bearing. This oil can be found in better bicycle shops around the USA.
  • The bushings are of the sintered bronze variety. Avoid oils with high ash or high sulfur content as these are abrasive and will wear the bushings prematurely.
Not in that procedure, but commonly agreed upon, is to use alcohol or mineral spirits with a q-tip to remove all the old oil residue.

Other oils I've heard mentioned:

Sewing Machine Oil
Synthetic Gear Oil
Synthetic Motor Oil (with people swearing by everything from 0w30 to 20w50!)

Does this jibe with the views of the Thorens cognoscenti?

EDIT: Tenacious oil does not appear to be synthetic, and many have said synthetic is far and away more preferred to dino oil.

Some say this is the way to go.
https://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs ... 1/image/4/

j_nienaber
member
member
Posts: 148
Joined: 07 May 2006 22:40
Location: Beautiful British Columbia

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by j_nienaber » 10 Mar 2019 17:09

I am surprised that there are not a ton of responses to this post already. Lubrication of turntable bearings are somewhat dear to my heart!

Your description of the procedure you follow for filling the bearing is pretty much the same as what I do as well, and I think I have seen similar instructions elsewhere on the web.

I cannot attest to the long-term effect of different oil types but something like Mobil 1 should be far better than any "dinosaur" oil (love the term). The viscosity should be as thick as you can find - the 75W-90 shown in your pick almost make me jealous, winter in Canada you'd be hard-pressed to find anything beyond 5W-20! Synthetic oils such as Mobil 1 also have an amazing ability to "cling" to the bearing surfaces.

I read or heard somewhere once that the gold-coloured oil sold by Linn for the LP12 platter bearing is in reality nothing other than a synthetic Mobil gear-cutting oil... You CAN buy it at lubricant specialists but only in way-too-big volumes (for turntable users), is my understanding.

terzinator
member
member
United States of America
Posts: 76
Joined: 07 Dec 2018 03:54
Location: Minnesota

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by terzinator » 11 Mar 2019 01:39

j_nienaber wrote:
10 Mar 2019 17:09
I am surprised that there are not a ton of responses to this post already. Lubrication of turntable bearings are somewhat dear to my heart!
yeah, was kind of surprised as well. Thanks for chiming in! :D

As I look at that Mobil 1 image, the "LS" designation indicates some kind of additive. Looks like Lucas makes a non-additive synthetic. Might go that route.

https://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs ... 7/image/4/

JDJX
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 4007
Joined: 28 Nov 2013 20:17
Location: Mid Hudson valley..... NY.....In the orginal Orange County

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by JDJX » 11 Mar 2019 02:36

"This is the best procedure I've found, which comes from Analog Dept:

Fill the well halfway up prior to assembling the shaft.

When the bearing shaft is installed and finally floats down to the thrust plate, there is some small over-flow of oil out the top of the housing. This lets us know we have oil all the way up. As wanted.

Personally, I like Phil Woods Tenacious oil for lubing this bearing. This oil can be found in better bicycle shops around the USA.

The bushings are of the sintered bronze variety. Avoid oils with high ash or high sulfur content as these are abrasive and will wear the bushings prematurely."
I agree with that 100% . It's how I lube my Thorens.

As far as oil..
I use a 100% real full synthetic with the proper viscosity...... with absolutely no additives.

To be specific...
I have been using this oil for the past few years with great results. At this point, I personally would not use anything else :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Bearing ... ctupt=true

BTW, some say ) that it just repackaged bulk oil.
Well.. yeah.. all oil is originally packaged in bulk.

Phil Woods Tenacious oil just some repackage bulk oil with a "Phil Woods Tenacious oil" name on it . It's my understanding that it contains a few additives.... according to Phil woods. :)

terzinator
member
member
United States of America
Posts: 76
Joined: 07 Dec 2018 03:54
Location: Minnesota

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by terzinator » 11 Mar 2019 17:14


JDJX
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 4007
Joined: 28 Nov 2013 20:17
Location: Mid Hudson valley..... NY.....In the orginal Orange County

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by JDJX » 11 Mar 2019 18:42

You are going to love it .. :)

You probably wont notice a dramatic difference at first but, since it's a real 100% pure synthetic with no additives, a year or so later it will still be like you just lubed it .

Personally, I re-lube lube my spindle bearing about every 18 months or so anyway.....whether it needs it or not ... which just consists of adding a small amount of this oil to the bearing.... topping it off a hair :)

BTW, at the same time, I lube the lower motor bearing on my 165 since I have to remove the bottom of the 165 anyway to release and lube the spindle.
Thorens says that the motors should be factory lubed for the life of the TT .
However, these vintage Thorens are now being used way beyond their intended life span.
Thorens has recommended that you wick a drop or two of oil down each end of the motor shaft to lube it.
I use the same oil for that . :)

Sunwire
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1934
Joined: 07 Oct 2004 21:54
Location: New York

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by Sunwire » 11 Mar 2019 20:23

Concerning gear oil versus motor oil SAE viscosity, I believe it was Jas who enlightened me to the differences.
The SAE viscosity scales are not comparable.
75W gear oil is approximately equivalent to 10-20W motor oil.
This was a huge surprise to me.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

For turntable bearings, I use Anderol 465 synthetic which can be found in small bottles on ebay.
That's the same as what Technics recommended for their turntable bearings.
But you can buy a pint or quart of compressor oil at many hardware stores that should be around 20-30W viscosity and cost only a few dollars.

nezbleu
senior member
senior member
Canada
Posts: 314
Joined: 29 Jan 2013 12:55
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by nezbleu » 11 Mar 2019 20:30

JDJX wrote:
11 Mar 2019 02:36

Phil Woods Tenacious oil just some repackage bulk oil with a "Phil Woods Tenacious oil" name on it . It's my understanding that it contains a few additives.... according to Phil woods. :)
Yes I'm sure it does, apparently Mr Woods gets it from some boutique refinery. (I kid you not, and I know that sounds crazy.) Whatever it is, it is definitely not repackaged ordinary oil. It is half-way to being grease, it is extremely viscous and sticky, so much that it is hard not to make a mess because fine-as-hair threads of lube are strung between the tip of the applicator and whatever you applied it to. I stopped using it on bicycle chains because it made a mess of my rims. It is dark green in color and has a strong smell (which implies some volatile compounds that will evaporate over time). I don't know if it's good for turntables but it is a unique oil product.

Sunwire
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1934
Joined: 07 Oct 2004 21:54
Location: New York

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by Sunwire » 12 Mar 2019 00:15

I wouldn't use Phil Woods Tenacious Oil for a turntable.
It's weird stuff. Very different from any other lubricant recommended by turntable manufacturers.
Maybe it would be good to "tighten up" a worn bearing that had a lot of play, but for a bearing in good condition, I wouldn't use it.

terzinator
member
member
United States of America
Posts: 76
Joined: 07 Dec 2018 03:54
Location: Minnesota

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by terzinator » 12 Mar 2019 04:36

Sunwire wrote:
12 Mar 2019 00:15
I wouldn't use Phil Woods Tenacious Oil for a turntable.
It's weird stuff. Very different from any other lubricant recommended by turntable manufacturers.
Maybe it would be good to "tighten up" a worn bearing that had a lot of play, but for a bearing in good condition, I wouldn't use it.
yah, agreed.

Interestingly, I bike (and fix mine) plenty, and I don't think I've ever used it. I've used his grease, though, which is fine.

user510
senior member
senior member
Posts: 464
Joined: 02 Dec 2003 19:36
Location: Raymond, Wa. USA
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by user510 » 14 Mar 2019 20:50

terzinator wrote:
12 Mar 2019 04:36
Sunwire wrote:
12 Mar 2019 00:15
I wouldn't use Phil Woods Tenacious Oil for a turntable.
It's weird stuff. Very different from any other lubricant recommended by turntable manufacturers.
Maybe it would be good to "tighten up" a worn bearing that had a lot of play, but for a bearing in good condition, I wouldn't use it.
yah, agreed.

Interestingly, I bike (and fix mine) plenty, and I don't think I've ever used it. I've used his grease, though, which is fine.
Yes, I bike as well and am familiar with Phil Woods Tenacious Oil. It's formulated for the bicycle drive chain and its main feature is that it stays in place under use. Likely this is far too viscous for a Thorens turntable main bearing and it is also 'likely' that it may inhibit the flow of oil within the porous structure of the Oilite bushings that are to be found in most Thorens turntable bearing housings. So...."not" recommended.

Although I think I may have experimented with it in my initial turntable fumbling around circa 2002 or thereabouts. Perhaps it can serve to tighten up the clearance between shaft and bushing wall in the main bearing, but in my limited experience I really haven't seen that many worn out Thorens bearings. I've seen damaged bearings and I've seen evidence of bearing wear but on the whole these 40 and 50 year old bearings tend to stay serviceable and really don't require anything radical like using extra viscous oil, such as Phil Woods Tenacious Oil.

You know Thorens had engineers on their staff both in Switzerland and in Germany. They tended to recommend 20wt turbine oil. For a time you could actually buy the stuff from a Thorens dealer. Nowadays you can get it in this package:
https://www.3inone.com/images/3in1/product-motor.jpg
3-In-One Electric Motor Oil
Available at your local hardware store for approximately $5.00 (plus or minus). don't get the regular 3-in-one oil, that's too thin. It's the SAE-20 wt oil we want. Just the right viscosity and no harmful additives.

-Steve

j_nienaber
member
member
Posts: 148
Joined: 07 May 2006 22:40
Location: Beautiful British Columbia

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by j_nienaber » 28 Mar 2019 20:06

So, in the Name of Science (and being bored) I was in my local Canadian Tire store last weekend and remembered this thread (seeing shelves upon shelves of all kinds of interesting lubricants jarred my memory). I ended up speaking to one of the automotive guys, and explained as best as I could WHAT a turntable is, WHAT it does etc etc - and the lubrication thereof. The gentlemen's immediate recommendation was a heavier full-synthetic oil. I bought a small bottle of "75W-140 Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic Axle and Gear Oil" intended for heavy-duty pickup truck applications (a turntable bearing is an axle of sorts after all :wink: ). I was previously using Mobil 1 SAE 10W-15 which is so thin that the oil in the spindle basically vacates the bearing well almost immediately when you remove the sub-platter and turn the 'table on its side.

(Seems the automotive industry in Canada are all in cahoots to sell you the thinnest possible oil on the basis of lower gasoline consumption and easier starting etc etc - can't remember when I last saw the "traditional" 20W-50 on a shelf anywhere).

I have been running this oil for almost a week now, and of course I can't say if it makes any difference - I would need a stethoscope to listen for bearing noise before / after, I think. At least it SEEMS to work at least as well or better and I am "somewhat happier" (the thin almost-sewing machine oil I was using earlier really bugged me). Also, no smoke or flames coming from the bearing either. This oil is safe in regards to contact with synthetic rubber etc. and TBH I have never met a metal-to-metal contact lubricant that causes corrosion in my life :P. It also maintains stability from -100 to +100 Celsius - hope I never have to test that claim.

I'll check the oil (colouration etc) from time to time and let you know if anything seems amiss.

On a side note, the ebay vendor who sells the "Liquid Bearing Oil" a few postings above will not ship to Canada, which is too bad. I think there are limitations on what can be shipped cross-border by private sellers - paint for instance is a big no-no, so I'm not surprised.

DarthMaul
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 2042
Joined: 18 Aug 2010 02:58
Location: Michigan

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by DarthMaul » 17 Jun 2019 23:59

Thought I'd bump this thread.

What oil is recommended for the motor of the TD126 MK III to stop it from squealing? Is a fully synthetic oil like Slick Liquid the correct oil? Should the bearing well of the TD126 MK III's subplatter be filled half way?

jlbruyelle
senior member
senior member
Posts: 476
Joined: 11 Aug 2008 13:51

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by jlbruyelle » 16 Jul 2019 09:50

DarthMaul wrote:
17 Jun 2019 23:59
Thought I'd bump this thread.

What oil is recommended for the motor of the TD126 MK III to stop it from squealing?
In fact, none of those that have been mentioned here. Your best option is to ask the question to Violette, aka Joel Boutreux. He actually worked at Thorens and sells (or used to sell) oils and oil kits for their different models on ebay, and his prices are reasonable. I use his oil for the motor and the spindle, and I have had good results.
DarthMaul wrote:
17 Jun 2019 23:59
Should the bearing well of the TD126 MK III's subplatter be filled half way?
Again, Violette is your friend. You can download ]his guide there. It's the French version but I'm sure there is ons in English somewhere that I can't find.

Hope this can help.

jlbruyelle
senior member
senior member
Posts: 476
Joined: 11 Aug 2008 13:51

Re: Thoughts on Oiling Thorens Spindle/Bearing

Post by jlbruyelle » 16 Jul 2019 12:48

Just found the manual in English. It turns out to be on this very forum: https://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/thorens.pdf

As it says, "Fill in the bearing 1ml oil and spread 1ml oil on the axle shaft". Much less than what it takes to fill the bearing well halfway.

Post Reply