Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

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tlscapital
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Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 12 Dec 2016 15:39

What are the advantages of each and disadvantages of both motors alimentation's voltage ?

And combined with an 'Eagle' PSU & 'RoadRunner' Tachometer which one would, should or is doing a better job if ever ?

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 14 Dec 2016 11:17

Let me come back to it. I have manage to accidentally bring in contact the motor with the 16VAC alimentation inner connection and whoosh smoke some diodes and maybe other bits along the way. Replacing those diodes didn't solved the damages.

When the motor manages to run for a short while, it's still a tad too slow. So before finding the issues here, I would like to have my deck running all over again.

At the same time I'm awaiting a Phoenix Eng. eagle PSU & RoadRunner Tachometer combo.

Since I need to buy all together a new motor and PCB (fixing the old "burned" one will be another project/work on it's own) switching from a 16VAC motor to a 220VAC one is my today query.

I do understand that the 16VAC motors are smoother and quieter where the 220VAC ones are more vigorous and "noisy".

Both options cost about the same. So I wondered if anyone who tried both have subjective as objective opinions on the matter ?

Especially with such a PSU device. I'd have thought the 220VAC to be a better fit without the wall wart in between and the wider voltage range for better precision, but maybe not !

paki976
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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by paki976 » 14 Dec 2016 11:39

Hi, probably knowing which Thorens turntable you have could Help.... I always thought that 16V TD1xx had almost no electronics apart few capacitos and resistors?
Are you sure that isn't the PSU failing after the short-circuit?

Ciao,
Fabrizio

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 14 Dec 2016 12:43

paki976 wrote:Hi, probably knowing which Thorens turntable you have could Help.... I always thought that 16V TD1xx had almost no electronics apart few capacitos and resistors?
Are you sure that isn't the PSU failing after the short-circuit?

Ciao,
Fabrizio
Hi Fabrizio and thanks, all I have is written in my avatar ;o) Long story short; I was sold 5 years ago this Thorens turntable fitted with an SME tonearm which of which I knew nothing of both worlds then. The Thorens was supposedly a TD160 'Super' but only from the outside (plinth & top plate) and I have come to realize recently while tweaking for the first time in my life that it's actually a TD146 on the inside.

Indeed the PCB circuit for the motor is not much. That TD146 PCB is big and 2/3rd is actually dedicated for the TP16 tonearm and auto shut-off mechanism which I don't need with my SME tonearm.

The wal wart it was provided with is/was a unbranded 18VDC tweak converted to work with the PCB and 16VAC motor. It did work fair then. We've guessed that the wal wart was indeed dead after that accident but the measurement tool we have under the hand is unreliable to attest so. Since I couldn't find a proper 16VAC wal wart here in any shop in Brussels. I've tried to kick it with a 18VAC one but with the poor results stated.

Would you'd recommend me to first buy a proper 16VAC wal wart online ? What about the differences with the 16VAC & 220VAC motors as such ? Especially if coupled with an Eagle PSU...

Cheers, Tim

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by paki976 » 14 Dec 2016 14:22

Hi Tim,
I took a look to the TD146/147 service manual, and looks like that ALL the elecronics apart from C1,C100,C101 are involved in tonearm auto-stop... and that removing the four diodes D101-104 will isolate the motor from the rest transforming it into a TD16X...
I would try another AC wal mart (probably any voltage under 24VAC will do for a short time), I think the motor is the same of the TD125.

Connecting one terminal of the wal mart to the black inputs of the motor, and the other one to the blue/red couple should make it spin (C1 will only detemine the direction). This is the fastest experiment to determine if the motor/psu combo is ok. Also testing Blue/black and Red/black for the same resistance is another good test.

No idea about the advantage of a !&V against a 220V one. I would buy the cheapest.

Ciao,
Fabrizio

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 14 Dec 2016 15:33

Hi again, yep you're right this is what's indeed needed to run the motor in the TD146/7. I hope it's only some caps that "fried". That is easier, cheaper and healthier (caps life span...) to fix.

Now where I'm puzzled is that I did trial it with a 18VAC wall wart and as I said, it was turning the motor some but too slow then no more. I'd have to test the values and in order to do so find a good "tester". The cheap one I found in the "shed" is worthless.

About the motor thing, I'll be tempted to venture into a 220VAC one to see/hear the difference. The cost is about similar but the 16VAC seems to be rarer in sales. Some say they are less enduring where others say they are smoother... I can believe they are all right.

Even after acquiring a 220VAC, I'll do my truly best to fix the 16VAC and at times test trials both of them to see if I can really come out with a preference/difference.

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 17 Dec 2016 15:55

paki976 wrote:Hi Tim,
I took a look to the TD146/147 service manual, and looks like that ALL the elecronics apart from C1,C100,C101 are involved in tonearm auto-stop... and that removing the four diodes D101-104 will isolate the motor from the rest transforming it into a TD16X...
I would try another AC wal mart (probably any voltage under 24VAC will do for a short time), I think the motor is the same of the TD125.

Connecting one terminal of the wal mart to the black inputs of the motor, and the other one to the blue/red couple should make it spin (C1 will only detemine the direction). This is the fastest experiment to determine if the motor/psu combo is ok. Also testing Blue/black and Red/black for the same resistance is another good test.

No idea about the advantage of a !&V against a 220V one. I would buy the cheapest.

Ciao,
Fabrizio
Hi Again Fabrizio, i did try that but to no avail. All I got was some sparks... Now I will have to measure everything one day to try and rescue that 16VAC motor configuration.

In the meantime, I'll just await the postman with a 220VAC Thorens motor in good working condition I hope. I will just give it some lube if it feels "grumpy" that is before kicking it.

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by rkay5 » 18 Dec 2016 11:47

I replaced a 16v motor with a 110v motor. I did nnot because one is any better than the other.I did so I could use a better power supply was using the Pro-ject Speed Box with 16v motor and i wanted a better power supply. The Mose/Hercules and It needs a 110v motor. The improvement in sound quilty with Mose/Hercules was big over the Speed Box.
This was done on a td150 I next replaced the thorens 16 pole 110v motor with a Linn 24 pole 110v motor The top plate had to be modifi to fit the Linn motor and sound got even better.
I feel one of the best ways to improve the thorens TD1-- is a out board power supply

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 18 Dec 2016 12:32

rkay5 wrote:I replaced a 16v motor with a 110v motor. I did nnot because one is any better than the other.I did so I could use a better power supply was using the Pro-ject Speed Box with 16v motor and i wanted a better power supply. The Mose/Hercules and It needs a 110v motor. The improvement in sound quilty with Mose/Hercules was big over the Speed Box.
This was done on a td150 I next replaced the thorens 16 pole 110v motor with a Linn 24 pole 110v motor The top plate had to be modifi to fit the Linn motor and sound got even better.
I feel one of the best ways to improve the thorens TD1-- is a out board power supply
Ha, interesting view about the Linn 24 pole motor in comparison with the Thorens 16 pole one. So more precision and I guess torque involved, that will indeed "tighten" the sound. Even combined with a Mose/Hercules PSU that does all of that also. Good to hear such an experience/point of hear.

I play my music "louder" rather than "quieter". This imply to have good dynamic to prevent the sound to drool down to "slime". Even if I loved the "mellow" sound of my TD146, after all the upgrades and conversions, some precision in sound revealed other dimensions and on some very specific records, I really heard that the "dynamic" or "tightness" loss the an almost (to me !) "mushy" sound.

I didn't like that "side effect". That's when I decide to spend my savings on the PSU & tachometer Phoenix Eng. combo. I'm now awaiting the last pieces of it together with my first 220VAC Thorens motor. So the loss of the "smooth" and "silent" original TD146 turntable 16VAC motor for a 220VAC one might also benefit my sound in the end.

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by rkay5 » 21 Dec 2016 07:34

With the Phoenix power supply your motor should never see 220vac the most should be around 100v or even less 80-85volts when I was using the AC Mose/Hercules the motor saw 50Hz/85 volts for 33 1/3 rpm and 67.5Hz/85 volts 45 rpm.
From what I have read about what you can do with Phoenix psu you start at 100 volts and once the table gets to speed drop voltage down to 85v.

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 30 Dec 2016 10:22

rkay5 wrote:With the Phoenix power supply your motor should never see 220vac the most should be around 100v or even less 80-85volts when I was using the AC Mose/Hercules the motor saw 50Hz/85 volts for 33 1/3 rpm and 67.5Hz/85 volts 45 rpm.
From what I have read about what you can do with Phoenix psu you start at 100 volts and once the table gets to speed drop voltage down to 85v.
Hi Robert and all, well, I've just replaced the original TD146 16VAC with a TD145 220VAC Thorens motor. Just by looking at it I see it kicks in more vigorously and then what I expected was a slight fffsss sound that I noticed instantly and a faint but present "knocking" sound. This last one disappears once the belt and platter is on. What the 16VAC was not doing either way. When music is playing it's not existent though.

Sonically, well the sound is tighten and speed in sound more accurate indeed. The first plays kinda brought the highs to high though. After some more dampening on the SME tonearm 4 pin external cable's connectors the mid and low basses came out more present, evener and cleaner. Then the highs and depth in sound lost some of their presence. And I did love them... I'll give it some time and see-hear how it comes to the heart of these ears.

Now I'm still awaiting the last part (still held at custom) to set my external PSU & tachometer unit. Once I'll receive it I'll install it all. After what I will make anew PCB for my 16VAC Thorens motor and then compare both motor fitted with the external PSU & tacho and see/hear which one I do favor in the end. And for the info, I'll have the Eagle and not the Falcon PSU from Phoenix Eng. that has to be pre-set for 230V and not 110V !

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by ivv » 12 Jul 2018 20:18

Hi,

I am looking for the plan of a new PCB for 16VAC Thorens motor. could you please make your plans available?

Many thanks in advance

ivv

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Re: Thorens TD1XX AC motor 16V or 110/230V ?

Post by tlscapital » 13 Jul 2018 12:05

ivv wrote:Hi,

I am looking for the plan of a new PCB for 16VAC Thorens motor. could you please make your plans available?

Many thanks in advance

ivv
Here it is. Mind you you might want to add a 100 mA fuse ('M' type for motor) as most modern PCB's are fitted with.
Thorens AC motor 16V PCB.jpg
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