Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

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antennaguru
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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by antennaguru » 08 Mar 2017 03:07

Gaslight wrote:
antennaguru wrote: You've talked about your lesser electronics and you're home-made clone loudspeakers in the past. My system is all higher quality genuine components at every stage and simply more revealing than yours, plus my room is more revealing having seen the pictures you posted of yours. It's just fine that you happen to like a lower performance turntable like the Technics SL1200 Mk2 on your lesser system, and maybe you also like it for the value proposition it offers you (bang for the buck your budget allows). Some people like me are looking for higher quality sound, and are willing to expend the effort to get it. We often don't get lost in the bang for the buck argument that almost gets you to not quite high-end sound, and ultimately proves disappointing long-term since it soon leads to a constant cycle of upgrading and hoping for satisfaction at the next upgrade.../quote]

I think this is what Caffe Latte meant with "rude". I personally think this paragraph would make a fine addition to wiktionary for their article on "condescending"
You call it condescending, the other fella called it rude, and I just call it the truth! It is, what it is...

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by cafe latte » 08 Mar 2017 03:33

antennaguru wrote:
Gaslight wrote:
antennaguru wrote: You've talked about your lesser electronics and you're home-made clone loudspeakers in the past. My system is all higher quality genuine components at every stage and simply more revealing than yours, plus my room is more revealing having seen the pictures you posted of yours. It's just fine that you happen to like a lower performance turntable like the Technics SL1200 Mk2 on your lesser system, and maybe you also like it for the value proposition it offers you (bang for the buck your budget allows). Some people like me are looking for higher quality sound, and are willing to expend the effort to get it. We often don't get lost in the bang for the buck argument that almost gets you to not quite high-end sound, and ultimately proves disappointing long-term since it soon leads to a constant cycle of upgrading and hoping for satisfaction at the next upgrade.../quote]

I think this is what Caffe Latte meant with "rude". I personally think this paragraph would make a fine addition to wiktionary for their article on "condescending"
You call it condescending, the other fella called it rude, and I just call it the truth! It is, what it is...
:lol: You know how my room sound from America from seeing a pic of it unfinished. You have no idea what my amps or speakers sound like, or what a Technics sounds like with a damper or a psu, I doubt you have ever heard a DNM as they are very uncommon or even a Gas or Decca super gold on a modded Technics like mine. But you know how my gear sounds in a room you have never been in!! :lol:
Man you are funny.. And quite a rude person too.
Chris

H. callahan
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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by H. callahan » 08 Mar 2017 04:15

How can it be forgiving if it's "unweighted?" Most specs are weighted, not unweighted, making them appear better. With weighting, the Audio Technica will measure even better.
The CCIR measures unweighted wow of 0.2% and (unweighted) flutter of 0.07%. If i´m correct these two values usually are added together to w+f=0.27%. The Australian Standart measures unweighted w+f combined 0.09% which is lesser by factor 3 (3x0.09=0.27).
That´s like having a car with 100hp, doing a measurement and the result is 300hp. Such a measurement method i´d call very forgiving. I know that measurement methods (in audio) differ, but a difference of 300% is a bit too much for my taste.
You´ve not heard the ATLP5 but disses it out offhand based on some figures you´ve read.
You´re totally correct, i´m one of those snobby, condescending audio-showoffs who looks down on everything but his own system - and of course technical data don´t mean a single thing! Yes, these just were invented that guys like me can give a sniff at stuff, it´s a total conspiracy.
And off course you HAVE to drive a car, only having 10hp, yourself, because that´s the ONLY way to find out how fast this car can go! Knowing that this car only has 10hp can´t tell you ANYTHING about it! Because specs are totally useless. So so totally meaningless.

... you might get my point. Or you think of me even a bigger jerk now for being sarcastic. As i said before:
Don´t get me wrong, if you like the tt i´m the last to tell you that you´re "liking the wrong tt"; but as i don´t have the possibility to hear this tt myself specs still give me a hint of the direction this tt is heading.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by Gaslight » 08 Mar 2017 07:51

antennaguru wrote: You call it condescending, the other fella called it rude, and I just call it the truth! It is, what it is...
I wasn't talking about the actual content of your post, to you it's the truth, to others it may or may not be the truth. It's audio and that means we have many truths. While I don't agree with many users here, I'm aware that what I'm calling reality/truth/right is just my subjective perception and that's the same for everyone.

So, a bit respect goes a long way... and I think your choice of words was downright belittling. I can imagine that you have quite some findings/thoughts/experiences to share, so why alienate yourself?

Schtick

Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by Schtick » 08 Mar 2017 10:30

H. callahan wrote:You´re totally correct, i´m one of those snobby, condescending audio-showoffs who looks down on everything but his own system - and of course technical data don´t mean a single thing! Yes, these just were invented that guys like me can give a sniff at stuff, it´s a total conspiracy.
I just find it interesting that the LP5 gets good rewievs (not only by the aussies) and that those who actually own one or has listened to one usually thinks it is a good turntable. But what do they know? I´ve not yet heard anyone giving it a bad rewiev based on actual listening experience.

Listening to slow piano music (Saties gymnopedies) is very revealing when it comes to speed variaations. The LP5 passes this test, at least to my ears. And I judge turntables essentially by ear.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by antennaguru » 08 Mar 2017 17:51

Gaslight wrote:
antennaguru wrote: You call it condescending, the other fella called it rude, and I just call it the truth! It is, what it is...
I wasn't talking about the actual content of your post, to you it's the truth, to others it may or may not be the truth. It's audio and that means we have many truths. While I don't agree with many users here, I'm aware that what I'm calling reality/truth/right is just my subjective perception and that's the same for everyone.
Maybe you didn't read back far enough or simply lost track that I was reporting the results of comparison testing of eight (8) turntables with similar if not identical cartridges (identical in the critical comparisons, and all compared over identical signal paths), as heard in consensus by several audiophiles on a very revealing system with the results as follows:

1. Goldmund/Goldmund
2. Oracle/Graham
3. Lenco L75/Jelco
4. Homebrew Belt Drive/Jelco
5. Thorens TD 125 Mk2/Helius
6. Linn Sondek LP12/Fidelity Research
7. BIG GAP (not a turntable, just a large performance gap)
8. Technics SL12XX with modifications
9. QRK 12C/Microtrak

The results are the results, and the truth of the results is something I am referring to as the truth. The silly part here is the continued denial of the other fella that his beloved Technics SL1200 Mk2 is not the best sounding turntable heard in the company of the much more competent turntables listed in this performance ranked order. Instead his posts continue his diatribe over what mods were done to make the poor performing Technics a little more competitive, and no, some other mod from KAB is a better mod and makes its poor performing arm even a little better than the mod from Music Direct and so forth. Meanwhile, it's a world of difference we're talking about here, hardly a nuance that some little mod is going to change. Please note what it says by number 7.

The other fella also only selectively focused on the Linn LP12/FR as the competition, and conveniently ignored the truth that it was only the number 6 ranked turntable in the comparison and he makes no mention of the 5 other turntables that beat the Linn LP12/FR, and therefore even more thoroughly trashed the Technics SL1200 Mk2. Again, some selective diatribe about his beloved Technics.

As to the equipment used, read back and you will see that the truth is that there is a world of difference there as well, and that world of difference reveals source differences to an even higher degree...

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by Issuesman666 » 08 Mar 2017 21:08

Love your own turntable,modify it or put a new cartridge to get the best sound you can afford or want to spend.

But if your turntable gets beaten by a superior turntable then you should accept that....

Most Technics turntables including the SL1200 mk 2 are mid fi at best.

Many people hear what they want to hear.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by cafe latte » 08 Mar 2017 22:46

antennaguru wrote:
Gaslight wrote:
antennaguru wrote: You call it condescending, the other fella called it rude, and I just call it the truth! It is, what it is...
I wasn't talking about the actual content of your post, to you it's the truth, to others it may or may not be the truth. It's audio and that means we have many truths. While I don't agree with many users here, I'm aware that what I'm calling reality/truth/right is just my subjective perception and that's the same for everyone.
Maybe you didn't read back far enough or simply lost track that I was reporting the results of comparison testing of eight (8) turntables with similar if not identical cartridges (identical in the critical comparisons, and all compared over identical signal paths), as heard in consensus by several audiophiles on a very revealing system with the results as follows:

1. Goldmund/Goldmund
2. Oracle/Graham
3. Lenco L75/Jelco
4. Homebrew Belt Drive/Jelco
5. Thorens TD 125 Mk2/Helius
6. Linn Sondek LP12/Fidelity Research
7. BIG GAP (not a turntable, just a large performance gap)
8. Technics SL12XX with modifications
9. QRK 12C/Microtrak

The results are the results, and the truth of the results is something I am referring to as the truth. The silly part here is the continued denial of the other fella that his beloved Technics SL1200 Mk2 is not the best sounding turntable heard in the company of the much more competent turntables listed in this performance ranked order. Instead his posts continue his diatribe over what mods were done to make the poor performing Technics a little more competitive, and no, some other mod from KAB is a better mod and makes its poor performing arm even a little better than the mod from Music Direct and so forth. Meanwhile, it's a world of difference we're talking about here, hardly a nuance that some little mod is going to change. Please note what it says by number 7.

The other fella also only selectively focused on the Linn LP12/FR as the competition, and conveniently ignored the truth that it was only the number 6 ranked turntable in the comparison and he makes no mention of the 5 other turntables that beat the Linn LP12/FR, and therefore even more thoroughly trashed the Technics SL1200 Mk2. Again, some selective diatribe about his beloved Technics.

As to the equipment used, read back and you will see that the truth is that there is a world of difference there as well, and that world of difference reveals source differences to an even higher degree...
So lets get this right you think that because you are speaking some truth or other it gives you the right to be rude and condescending? Apart you have never heard my system or a Technics with any Kab mod or the carts I mentioned, or any of my gear actually, all this aside whatever you believe to be the truth does not give you the right to be rude. And for the record I never focused on LP12 as Technics competition, I dont like LP12's, I dont like how they present music. My friend actually replaced his lp12 with a modded Technics. All this said my recent finding make me wonder if any half decent TT can sound amazing matched with the right cart, but that is another story..
Chris
Edit, oh and I own a Lenco too, it sounds nice but not as good as my Technics I also own a Commonwealth idler drive too in a massive plinth, and a 12 inch Jelco arm, and Technics wins again..
Non of this matters one bit, you are a very rude person.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by H. callahan » 09 Mar 2017 05:14

I just find it interesting that the LP5 gets good rewievs (not only by the aussies) and that those who actually own one or has listened to one usually thinks it is a good turntable. But what do they know? I´ve not yet heard anyone giving it a bad rewiev based on actual listening experience.

Listening to slow piano music (Saties gymnopedies) is very revealing when it comes to speed variaations. The LP5 passes this test, at least to my ears. And I judge turntables essentially by ear.
The thing about the good reviews is that these, made by magazines, might be biased or flattering. There only are few audio-magazines left which are dependent on sponsors, whos products sometimes are tested by these magazines.
My main anger is about the vodoo in vinyl at the moment. I know its stupid to be angry about it because vinyl still is a niche market and every manufacturer is struggling to survive, but every manufacturers description i read tells me about how great this tt is, how much precision its been built with and how great the materials are its built of - but often just no specs. One manufacturer even said that his tt is that good that w+f and rumble couldn´t be measured - and this was the cheapest model he produced. The next in price model from the same manufacturer wondrously did have specs and these weren´t that good. I don´t want to be fooled and i think that newcomers being fooled will move away from vinyl soon.

If the LP5 only gets good reviews its great but that still doesn´t tell us how good it is. Maybe some reviewers only know worse tts, maybe some don´t know what w+f sounds like and think its intentional by the artist, maybe some don´t want to admitt to themselfes that their tt they payed a lot money for isn´t that perfect, and maybe some don´t want to post that they´re not super-happy because everyone else is writing only positive stuff about it and they´re afraid of being booed.

It´s a good idea to judge by ear, but if i´m having a bad day (not having slept well ect.) i can´t hear as much tracking distortion for example as when i´m having a good day. And i don´t know how good my hearing is or how good yours is. Even if we both listen to the same tt, in the same place at the same time ect., we still might differ in our opinions - and not just because our hearing differs. It might be that you´re more critical about w+f as i am. You might say "It´s horrible" while i might say "I can hear it but i don´t feel annoyed by this ammount of w+f".
...

Therefore specs are a very good way to actually tell how good it is. A measurement-machine isn´t biased, bribable or dependent. It isn´t impressed by a productdescription emphasizing used material and precision. It knows what´s good and what isn´t. It´s not afraid of telling its measurements. It´s not having a bad day like i sometimes do. Its "hearing and perception" doesn´t differ (if its not broken) as it differs between different people. Ect. .
...

I reread my posts in this topic and let´s say i´ve been a bit too harsh about the LP5, but we´re still talking about an 800$-tt here. And according to the specs there are a lot of older tts around here which are quite a bit better but cost about 100-150$.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by ammarmariti » 09 Mar 2017 06:25

Gentlemen, there is a river now from this p*****g contest. The OP only asked "AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120".

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by H. callahan » 09 Mar 2017 06:56

The other fella also only selectively focused on the Linn LP12/FR as the competition, and conveniently ignored the truth that it was only the number 6 ranked turntable in the comparison and he makes no mention of the 5 other turntables that beat the Linn LP12/FR, and therefore even more thoroughly trashed the Technics SL1200 Mk2. Again, some selective diatribe about his beloved Technics.
In case you´re "looking in my direction" i can assure you that i´m neither owning a Linn nor a Technics, nor have any "special relation" to one of these tts.

The main reason for me focusing on these two is sub-chassis vs. plinth and belt-drive vs. DD. As you enlightend me (and i´m not being sarcastic right now) several month ago in this topic that DDs, measuring very good on a test record, don´t necessarily perform as well on a "real-life"-record, having a (heavy) modulated groove. I do own a quartz-controlled, lightweight plattern DD-Pioneer which is why i asked you about how the speed stability of the Technics was in your opinion (as the Technics also is a quartz-controlled, lightweight...).
The other reason for me excluding the other tts was that i´ll never be able to afford some of these (, i´m not really looking for a better tt at the moment and if i was i´d probably be looking for a linear tracker) and it´s unlikely i´ll ever have the opportunity to do a profound listening comparison between those other tts you mentioned.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by H. callahan » 09 Mar 2017 07:09

Gentlemen, there is a river now from this p*****g contest. The OP only asked "AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120".
But... but... but THEY started it! I´ve done nothing, honest, i swear! ( :wink: )

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by Issuesman666 » 09 Mar 2017 10:39

To 'Cafe Latte',

Just as how you ''don't like the Linn LP12" can't you accept that not everyone is a fan or likes Technics 1200....modded or otherwise?Your system sounds good to you but not all people are going to like your gear even if they haven't heard it.

Have you heard all suitcase cheap Crosley type players?I am sure you hate them even though you have never heard them.I hate them as well but surprise surprise some people will snob your Technics as being cheap with a crap tonearm the same way you bash a Crosley.

Your anecdotes always imply that your modded Technics is the best thing ever....I get tired of hearing about it.

There is always something better.

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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by cafe latte » 09 Mar 2017 14:16

Nigel Gomez wrote:To 'Cafe Latte',

Just as how you ''don't like the Linn LP12" can't you accept that not everyone is a fan or likes Technics 1200....modded or otherwise?Your system sounds good to you but not all people are going to like your gear even if they haven't heard it.

Have you heard all suitcase cheap Crosley type players?I am sure you hate them even though you have never heard them.I hate them as well but surprise surprise some people will snob your Technics as being cheap with a crap tonearm the same way you bash a Crosley.

Your anecdotes always imply that your modded Technics is the best thing ever....I get tired of hearing about it.

There is always something better.
I dont hate Linn, I just think they are a bit coloured. One of the best Linn setups I heard was Satin Friendly's, he likes a rather hard cold sound IMO the cart or amp made his sound rather nice though soft plus hard just worked IMO. Recently I have fitted one of my many carts to my sl1210, my retipped gas sleeping beauty. I had not really tried it on the Technics properly before, but it really really sings on it. My new theory is any decent TT cant be tuned with a cart. Compliance aside all turntables, Linn Technics etc have a sonic signature the right cart IMO can get the planets aligned for sonic bliss you just need to find it. Linn would not make it to my TT shelf, but I have no doubt with the right cart it could sound amazing, Chris (SF) proved that. Dont get me started on AT turntables as they are flawed at least the ones I auditioned. I do believe many TT's can sound great well set up with the right cart. Apart their obvious flaws even the lp240 could probably tuned with a cart, I have not tried, it but it is possible..
Chris

antennaguru
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Re: Audio Technica AT-LP1240 or AT-LP120

Post by antennaguru » 20 Mar 2017 02:58

Nigel Gomez wrote:To 'Cafe Latte',

Just as how you ''don't like the Linn LP12" can't you accept that not everyone is a fan or likes Technics 1200....modded or otherwise?Your system sounds good to you but not all people are going to like your gear even if they haven't heard it.

Have you heard all suitcase cheap Crosley type players?I am sure you hate them even though you have never heard them.I hate them as well but surprise surprise some people will snob your Technics as being cheap with a crap tonearm the same way you bash a Crosley.

Your anecdotes always imply that your modded Technics is the best thing ever....I get tired of hearing about it.

There is always something better.
^^^ This!

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