antiskate

always listening
streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 25 Aug 2018 04:53

So I have my LP120 set at 2g and the antiskate at 2 but bought a one sided village people lp (goddammit) to test the antiskate. On each end of the antiskate scale the stylus definitely flies off the record or towards the spindle. When I have it between 1-2g, however, it's hard to tell. If I drop the stylus on the middle of the record, it flies straight but if I drop it on either end of the record, it pulls to the opposite side. So, how do I know? Also, what do you recommend for cleaning a stylus? My cat's shedding is outta control. Thanks!

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... 6zzhaj.jpg

PAR
member
member
Posts: 32
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 22:05
Location: London, England

Re: antiskate

Post by PAR » 25 Aug 2018 08:19

I gather than you are trying to use the blank side of the disc to set anti-skating. This is a great method if you only play blank discs.

Anti-skating can only be set using a record with modulated grooves as only then will the stylus undergo all of the conditions that affect skating or bias. These include the modulation, stylus profile and its relation to the groove shape and even the vinyl formula of a given disc.

You can use one of the test discs available which generally have a tone which is cut at ever increasing levels. However as the higher levels on such discs would not normally be encountered on real music discs it is therefore possible to set bias too high for practical use. Such discs are also misunderstood by many who seek to eliminate all distortion at all levels of cut. This will often lead to the application of excess bias compensation and excessive VTF. You need to listen for equal amounts of distortion from each channel rather than none at all.

The best method is to listen to a well recorded and mastered disc of acoustic music (because it is easier to hear distortion), set the bias compensator to the marking suggested by the manufacturer and listen. In many cases you will find that the amount of compensation applied needs to be reduced with real life music discs.

You may gather from the above that there is no universally correct bias setting as each disc will provide slightly different conditions. A good " ball-park" setting is all that is practical to achieve.

A carbon fibre stylus brush is excellent for cleaning the stylus at the end of each side. You can also "dip" the stylus into a small piece of blu-tack on a piece of card ( make sure that the card does not move if you do this). Slightly better as it seems not to exude any oily substance is watchmaker's putty or Rodicor if you can get some.
Last edited by PAR on 25 Aug 2018 08:29, edited 1 time in total.

radelius
junior member
junior member
Posts: 24
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 16:00

Re: antiskate

Post by radelius » 25 Aug 2018 08:27

I use the method with blank disc as a starting point and it is most of the times more or less identical setting to using my Ortofon test record. To me it sounds as you have Rega rb250 tonearm because a get exactly the same phenomena with that arm and only that arm;)

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 25 Aug 2018 18:04

radelius wrote:I use the method with blank disc as a starting point and it is most of the times more or less identical setting to using my Ortofon test record. To me it sounds as you have Rega rb250 tonearm because a get exactly the same phenomena with that arm and only that arm;)

Thanks. Yeah this is very strange but it seems to me like it should be set between 1-1.5 so I'm close at least. I'm not sure which tonearm I have. is the rb250 the one that comes with the LP120? I guess dropping the stylus dead center of the record is the way to go for ballpark adjustment.

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 25 Aug 2018 18:11

PAR wrote:I gather than you are trying to use the blank side of the disc to set anti-skating. This is a great method if you only play blank discs.

Anti-skating can only be set using a record with modulated grooves as only then will the stylus undergo all of the conditions that affect skating or bias. These include the modulation, stylus profile and its relation to the groove shape and even the vinyl formula of a given disc.

You can use one of the test discs available which generally have a tone which is cut at ever increasing levels. However as the higher levels on such discs would not normally be encountered on real music discs it is therefore possible to set bias too high for practical use. Such discs are also misunderstood by many who seek to eliminate all distortion at all levels of cut. This will often lead to the application of excess bias compensation and excessive VTF. You need to listen for equal amounts of distortion from each channel rather than none at all.

The best method is to listen to a well recorded and mastered disc of acoustic music (because it is easier to hear distortion), set the bias compensator to the marking suggested by the manufacturer and listen. In many cases you will find that the amount of compensation applied needs to be reduced with real life music discs.

You may gather from the above that there is no universally correct bias setting as each disc will provide slightly different conditions. A good " ball-park" setting is all that is practical to achieve.

A carbon fibre stylus brush is excellent for cleaning the stylus at the end of each side. You can also "dip" the stylus into a small piece of blu-tack on a piece of card ( make sure that the card does not move if you do this). Slightly better as it seems not to exude any oily substance is watchmaker's putty or Rodicor if you can get some.
Thanks for the info!

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 26 Aug 2018 22:39

quick question: when adjusting the antiskate by ear, can i adjust the dial while the record is playing or do i have to lift the stylus and redadjust each time?

tlscapital
long player
long player
Belgium
Posts: 2029
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 14:27
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Re: antiskate

Post by tlscapital » 27 Aug 2018 07:13

streetpussy wrote:quick question: when adjusting the antiskate by ear, can i adjust the dial while the record is playing or do i have to lift the stylus and redadjust each time?
You could but I'd rather do it with the 'cue' lift up to avoid the stylus to jump out of the groove if ever...

For another tip, while digitalizing a record, I look at the channels "volume" graphic to visualize that also.

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 28 Aug 2018 00:36

am i doing this right? the shim itself is loose but the cartridge is secure? is the shim gonna rattle when playing and cause issues? turns out shimming this thing is a nightmare.

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... b6w0lp.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... l8zub2.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... j6gnie.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... qft5tg.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... jyuy8k.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... kwxau8.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... nsas1o.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... mjhkbs.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... feuvxq.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... mtzbu2.jpg

do i need to add another shim?

if this is all good, how do i know what to set the tracking force to? the manufacturer recommendation is 2g but since it has the added weight with the shim..

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 795
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: antiskate

Post by Sterling1 » 28 Aug 2018 01:19

streetpussy wrote:am i doing this right? the shim itself is loose but the cartridge is secure? is the shim gonna rattle when playing and cause issues? turns out shimming this thing is a nightmare.

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... b6w0lp.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... l8zub2.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... j6gnie.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... qft5tg.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... jyuy8k.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... kwxau8.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... nsas1o.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... mjhkbs.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... feuvxq.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... mtzbu2.jpg

do i need to add another shim?

if this is all good, how do i know what to set the tracking force to? the manufacturer recommendation is 2g but since it has the added weight with the shim..
Ya need to get shorter screws. If you were to set cart on record and hit edge of record instead of lead in groove, movement of the cart off record might allow screw to scratch record. If you do not have shorter screws just run screws from bottom to nuts on top of headshell. One more thing set distance from stylus to headshell tail at 53mm and make cart parallel to headshell axis and you will have magnificent sound. Keep cart force at 2 grams. You will need to re-balance, since adding the shim is now making tracking force greater.

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 28 Aug 2018 01:37

oh man just thinking about trying to do that makes me feel like i’m gonna have a brain anyerusm.

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 28 Aug 2018 01:51

does the tonearm height look correct though? that's set as low as it goes. I have one more shim that was supplied if it needs to be added. There's a guy in my area who repairs record players and I'm just gonna have him shim this for me but need to know whether or not I should add the second shim since I don't want to take my record player with me as well.

or should i just give up on using that rubber technics mat with a shim and just use this thick cork mat even though the tonearm dives a little?

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... gx9lsm.jpg

ChrisfromRI
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 475
Joined: 13 May 2004 04:17
Location: New England

Re: antiskate

Post by ChrisfromRI » 28 Aug 2018 04:01

Not sure about those last couple posts, but I thought I would explain the way I have learned to set anti-skating force. There is a scale on the adjustment but we really have no idea what math went into creating that scale, other than the manufacturer's thought that a setting on the scale corresponding with the tracking force you're using would be reasonable. Given age and wear on the spring that applies this force, if it's a spring applied anti-skating force we don't really know how the scale corresponds today to what was originally intended.

We do know what our tracking force is set to, and that is because we measure it with an external scale we know is accurate. We also know that the two main variables affecting how much anti-skating force is needed are the tracking force and the amount of groove modulation applied to the stylus. More anti-skating force is needed for heavy groove modulation than for light groove modulation. Accordingly we know that we will never be setting the anti-skating force to the "perfect" amount because when we play records the music is dynamic and there is variation from high groove modulation to low groove modulation, so the best we can hope for is a compromise setting for the medium groove modulation level of a large percentage of the music being played - understanding that sometimes it will be set a little too high and sometimes a little too low.

OK then, there are many test records available with slowly increasing groove modulation of recorded tones. The goal when playing these tones is for neither speaker channel to distort all the way through this test track, but that is generally impossible, so one channel will usually audibly distort before the other channel will. Applying more or less anti-skating force will get them to both start distorting at the same time, at the maximum groove modulation that the cartridge can track.

If the left channel distorts first try reducing the anti-skating force, and if the right distorts first try increasing the anti-skating force. Assuming you have done this carefully then you will have carefully optimized the anti-skating force adjustment for one condition and one condition only, the absolute maximum groove modulation that your cartridge can successfully track. Look at the anti-skating force scale now and see what it says compared to your tracking force! Make a note of that setting. What I do is then make the assumption that the point that the dial or weight is adjusted to is the perfect point for that tracking force at maximum groove modulation. I then assume that from zero to that point the anti-skating scale is reasonably linear and I back the adjustment off to one half of that maximum setting knowing that very little music will be at maximum groove modulation, and most music will be more in the middle. This method has served me well for a long time. Again this is a compromise setting that will never be perfect, but this method usually allows it to be pretty close most of the time.

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 28 Aug 2018 04:37

Thanks for the info man. Will do some experimenting.

Is there just a different head shell and/or stylus I can get to alleviate this problem? Anyone got a tried and true head shell/cart combo that fixes the tonearm height issue? I ended up marring the hardware and losing my temper so I'll need something new anyway.

Sterling1
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 795
Joined: 01 Feb 2017 16:28
Contact:

Re: antiskate

Post by Sterling1 » 28 Aug 2018 10:45

Seems your shim got the cartridge level. I know how frustrating this stuff can be, been there done that. Now, some reality, it appears you have an Audio Technica 120 USB Turntable. The anti-skate device on these turntables does not function very well according to reports and that has been my experience with this model too; but, it does not seem to matter as confirmed by Anti-Skating Test Record and usage when the device is just set to "2". The A-T 95 cart that comes with the turntable is not sensitive to stylus rake so you can just adjust the VTA adjustment all the way down and although the cart will be tail high there will be no problem, also my experience with this model. So, take out the shim, use mounting hardware that was originally fitted to cart and remount cart, setting distance from stylus to headshell tail at 53mm. Next adjust cartridge to be parallel to headshell axis and tighten screws. Then, just enjoy.

streetpussy
member
member
Posts: 110
Joined: 28 Apr 2018 06:47

Re: antiskate

Post by streetpussy » 28 Aug 2018 13:38

whew, good to know, thanks. i just got this tt to get into records and would rather just buy a different tt down the road than spend a bunch of money swapping out parts on this one. sorry for being annoying.

so either of these setups will work eh?

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... ygraka.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r60 ... pt5okl.jpg

first setup is the 1/4” cork
second is the AT 1/8” felt mat (bought a 1/8” rubber technics mat i planned on using but would obviously have same tonearm height)

Post Reply