I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One...

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cafe latte
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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 29 Apr 2018 20:22

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
cafe latte wrote: You really do need to chill..
Chris
Please understand...

You really need to do the same.
Look, you are newsh ish here and threads can go off topic but they can also be discussed a little wider than the original question. Loosing the plot when someone mentions digital scales and ranting about not replying to posts off topic is not how you get people to help you in future.. And it is not the way not to get responses that are a little terse either.. Anyway all good you have your answer which is sort of obvious and to be honest I though it had already been answered long before scales came up.
Enjoy the forum ve is a great place and you can learn a lot especially when the discussion widens a bit :wink:
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Copperhead » 29 Apr 2018 20:25

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
Copperhead wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote: However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
Four pages to get here.
That's ALL I was trying to ascertain, Copper.
Some simple things can get very confusing if one applies too much thought to them. At least you managed to get some clarity in the end.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 29 Apr 2018 23:54

cafe latte wrote:
Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
cafe latte wrote: You really do need to chill..
Chris
Please understand...

You really need to do the same.
Look, you are newsh ish here and threads can go off topic but they can also be discussed a little wider than the original question. Loosing the plot when someone mentions digital scales and ranting about not replying to posts off topic is not how you get people to help you in future.. And it is not the way not to get responses that are a little terse either.. Anyway all good you have your answer which is sort of obvious and to be honest I though it had already been answered long before scales came up.
Enjoy the forum ve is a great place and you can learn a lot especially when the discussion widens a bit :wink:
Chris
Good Grief...

Here comes the ambiguous "You're New Here" argument...

https://i.imgur.com/fv4OBfv.png

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 29 Apr 2018 23:56

Some simple things can get very confusing if one applies too much thought to them. At least you managed to get some clarity in the end.
That's the whole point -- I DIDN'T WANT IT to go so off-topic (something that Chris apparently doesn't understand) that we began stewing in a pot chock-full of conspiracies, theories and vinyl mumbo-jumbo when all I wanted to know was whether an arm needed to be rebalanced when using a digital scale to verify the VTF of a new incoming cartridge.

I will assume the consensus here is that the answer to the question is a definitive "NO"?

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Copperhead » 30 Apr 2018 00:37

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
Some simple things can get very confusing if one applies too much thought to them. At least you managed to get some clarity in the end.
That's the whole point -- I DIDN'T WANT IT to go so off-topic

I will assume the consensus here is that the answer to the question is a definitive "NO"?
Yes, if the whatever reads whatever on the headshell end it matters little how you got there.

A bit of off topic with the scales, but I am sure it was well meant and not trolling. No point in getting in a row about a misunderstanding, Chris just thought he was helping. Might as well just have a virtual handshake and enjoy the hobby.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 30 Apr 2018 01:37

Copperhead wrote:
Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
Some simple things can get very confusing if one applies too much thought to them. At least you managed to get some clarity in the end.
That's the whole point -- I DIDN'T WANT IT to go so off-topic

I will assume the consensus here is that the answer to the question is a definitive "NO"?
Yes, if the whatever reads whatever on the headshell end it matters little how you got there.

A bit of off topic with the scales, but I am sure it was well meant and not trolling. No point in getting in a row about a misunderstanding, Chris just thought he was helping. Might as well just have a virtual handshake and enjoy the hobby.
Exactly and aggression keeps flowing, I won't be helping in a hurry again, way too much tension and yes the scale comment was well meant and IMO relevant
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Tinkaroo » 30 Apr 2018 09:21

I use Dual turntables and it is part of the procedure to zero balance the tonearm for any new headshell and cartridge before applying any tracking force. There is a scale on the side of the tonearm for setting the force.

So for Dual turntables first balancing the tonearm is a necessary procedure.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Audie » 30 Apr 2018 14:13

Zero balancing is standard practice when changing cartridges or headshell.

Whether you use the C/W scale or a digital scale to set tracking force is optional

Since Quartz-Lock seemed to want to do without re-balancing, I suggested he could, as long as the new cartridge was similar to the one he was replacing ( as the balance and VTA would remain similar to before).

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by derspankster » 30 Apr 2018 14:24

My Jelco tonearm has removable head-shells. I have several cartridges mounted in head-shells and I am apt to swap them on a regular basis.

I use a digital scale to set tracking force. I zero my anti-skate then use a digital scale to set tracking force then dial in what anti-skate that I've found to be to my liking for the particular cartridge mounted.

I pay no attention to the markings on the arms counterweight. I don't re-balance the tonearm. When using a scale what does the weight of a particular cartridge have to do with it?

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Copperhead » 30 Apr 2018 14:42

derspankster wrote:When using a scale what does the weight of a particular cartridge have to do with it?
Nothing at all, of course. This must be the longest thread about one of the simplest aspects of how a tonearm works. Similar to the famous question " What weighs more, a kilogram of feathers or a kilogram of lead".

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by derspankster » 30 Apr 2018 14:48

Copperhead wrote:
derspankster wrote:When using a scale what does the weight of a particular cartridge have to do with it?
Nothing at all, of course. This must be the longest thread about one of the simplest aspects of how a tonearm works. Similar to the famous question " What weighs more, a kilogram of feathers or a kilogram of lead".
Thanks. I couldn't fathom what I was reading actually.

der

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 30 Apr 2018 19:23

Tinkaroo wrote:I use Dual turntables and it is part of the procedure to zero balance the tonearm for any new headshell and cartridge before applying any tracking force. There is a scale on the side of the tonearm for setting the force.

So for Dual turntables first balancing the tonearm is a necessary procedure.
Yes -- that makes sense in THAT situation. However, I was asking whether it was necessary to zero balance IF an outboard scale is being used to measure downforce.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 30 Apr 2018 19:26

Audie wrote:Zero balancing is standard practice when changing cartridges or headshell.

Whether you use the C/W scale or a digital scale to set tracking force is optional
But why would zero balancing be necessary IF the individual opts to go with the digital scale method? THAT'S the essence of the question here.

And it's not that I WANTED to "do" without rebalancing, it's more that I was trying to ascertain if I HAD to rebalance the arm to a zero pitch IF I was dialing in downforce based on a SCALE'S readings, NOT the counterweight...

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 30 Apr 2018 19:27

Exactly and aggression keeps flowing, I won't be helping in a hurry again, way too much tension and yes the scale comment was well meant and IMO relevant
Chris
...and the pot continues calling the kettle black by accusing ME of being the aggressor... :^o

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 30 Apr 2018 19:28

derspankster wrote:I use a digital scale to set tracking force. I zero my anti-skate then use a digital scale to set tracking force then dial in what anti-skate that I've found to be to my liking for the particular cartridge mounted.

I pay no attention to the markings on the arms counterweight. I don't re-balance the tonearm. When using a scale what does the weight of a particular cartridge have to do with it?
Thank you -- THIS is keeping in line with the topic and helping me better understand the dynamics at play behind counterweight balancing compared to using a digital scale...

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