I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One...

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Quartz_Lock10729
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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 28 Apr 2018 19:36

cafe latte wrote:
Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
I have never ever come across any strain gauge scales that dont drift horribly and believe me I have used plenty. Then there is the dead battery when you come to use it. Like I said there is nothing to be gained anyway with 0.1g accuracy so why would you bother with a digital scale even it it was more accurate which it isnt. I have a dead stylus scale (digital) with dead strain gauge, I hated it having dead batteries anyway when I reached for it. The stylus beam scale needs no batteries and it is hard to break and very accurate what is there not to like..
Chris
I will reiterate:

All of that said, I didn't want this thread to go sideways into a digital scale inaccuracy argument
Reiterate all you want but read my post properly first.. I also said even if the digital scale is super accurate (which they are not) stylus dont need super duper accuracy with down force anyway and a beam scale does not need batteries.
Chris
I did read your post "properly." And I will repeat:

I didn't want this to turn into a debate regarding the inaccuracies of digital scales (which your comment of "Even if the digital scale is super accurate, which they are not" CLEARLY leans towards; what follows after that is quasi-irrelevant because just that lead-in is enough to tell me where the conversation is headed).

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 28 Apr 2018 19:37

DeepEnd wrote:If I remember at the start of the thread the question was

When switching out a cartridge for a replacement/new one, does the tonearm HAVE to be rebalanced doing the whole balancing/zero weight routine if using a digital scale to measure VTF?

Definitive answer is NO
Yes, you remember correctly -- and thank you for staying on topic and addressing this.
BUT It a lot safer to balance the arm first to avoid accidentally crushing the stylus/cantilever into the scales if the headshell/cartridge are heavier.

Given decent quality nude styli are £100-£200 then 60 seconds more time to balance first is certainly my preference.

I have also noted some questions about the accuracy of the low cost digital scales. I paid £8.00 (~$11.00) for mine and they only read in increments of 0.01g (10mg) (I know some show to 0.001g/1mg e.g. some jewellery scales but the problem is with these even with a wind protector if someone coughs in another room they move a bit so are somewhat pointless).

I also bought some "F2" grade calibration weights (a huge £6.98 inc postage for both) which means my 5g weight should be +/- 0.5mg (or 0.0005g) and the 2g weight +/- 0.4mg (or 0.0004g) and so far more accurate than I need (I also bought some plastic tweezers so I don't change the weight with anything transferred from my hands). I calibrate with the 5g and then check the linearity with the 2g (i.e. closer to the typical tracking weights used) and guess what?

Providing I give them 30 seconds to "warm up and settle" they read correctly every time. In fact even if I don't recal each time I turn them on after thirty seconds and a zero they still read the 2g as 2.00g after a few weeks. Certainly good enough for me

Given the cost of the scale even with the more accurate weights at £15 then paying more for a Shure see-saw scale with inaccuracies due to things like pivot point friction does not see worth it.

If you want to be even more accurate then M1 grade weights would be +/- 0.15mg/0.12mg and even the tighter E2 grade +/- 0.05mg/0.04mg but given the probable tolerance on the compliance of the cartridge of +/- 15% we may be going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Points taken; thank you.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 28 Apr 2018 20:47

Look you are coming across very aggressive and the original question was answered so I was making a comment about scales as this is valid too and digital are just not necessary, actually scales are not needed for most arms. I have set down force by balancing arm and dialing in say 1.5g and then weighed it and it is surprise surprise 1.5g. No need anyway to obsess about 0.1 of a g. Now to your question which I will answer again of course you need to rebalance and reweigh the arm every time it would be very lucky to get two carts exactly the same weight and even if they are they may have stylus position different so after aligning they will balance differently.
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 28 Apr 2018 22:02

cafe latte wrote:Look you are coming across very aggressive and the original question was answered so I was making a comment about scales as this is valid too and digital are just not necessary, actually scales are not needed for most arms. I have set down force by balancing arm and dialing in say 1.5g and then weighed it and it is surprise surprise 1.5g. No need anyway to obsess about 0.1 of a g. Now to your question which I will answer again of course you need to rebalance and reweigh the arm every time it would be very lucky to get two carts exactly the same weight and even if they are they may have stylus position different so after aligning they will balance differently.
Chris
I'M coming across aggressively??

Brother...please don't throw stones when living in a glass house. I appreciate you attempting to ease the quasi-argument when that other member started throwing insulting words at me, calling me a "wee lad" and such for disagreeing with him about the AT95e's so-called "prowess," but this situation in THIS thread is going down the path of the pot calling the kettle black, my man...

That's all I am going to say to you about this; if you have anything further to add regarding using a digital scale ONLY when installing a new cartridge (as opposed to rebalancing the arm and such), I will address it. Otherwise, I will only be responding to members who have stayed on topic.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by JoeE SP9 » 28 Apr 2018 22:07

café latte:
I can't agree with you on this. Whether or not you zero and re-balance an arm makes no difference when using an external balance or scale. If you're using the scale on the weight to determine stylus force yes, you should re-balance the arm.

If you're using an external gauge or balance the only thing that matters is applying the correct amount of downforce.

Personally, I would re-zero the arm first. I'm anal that way. However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 28 Apr 2018 22:54

JoeE SP9 wrote:café latte:
I can't agree with you on this. Whether or not you zero and re-balance an arm makes no difference when using an external balance or scale. If you're using the scale on the weight to determine stylus force yes, you should re-balance the arm.

If you're using an external gauge or balance the only thing that matters is applying the correct amount of downforce.

Personally, I would re-zero the arm first. I'm anal that way. However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
THANK YOU, Joe. It's precisely what I wanted to know. =D>

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Copperhead » 28 Apr 2018 23:17

JoeE SP9 wrote: However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
Four pages to get here.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by smee4 » 29 Apr 2018 01:13

Copperhead wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote: However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
Four pages to get here.
Actually some of gave this same opinion long ago but apparently didn't say it correctly. :)

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 29 Apr 2018 01:36

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
cafe latte wrote:Look you are coming across very aggressive and the original question was answered so I was making a comment about scales as this is valid too and digital are just not necessary, actually scales are not needed for most arms. I have set down force by balancing arm and dialing in say 1.5g and then weighed it and it is surprise surprise 1.5g. No need anyway to obsess about 0.1 of a g. Now to your question which I will answer again of course you need to rebalance and reweigh the arm every time it would be very lucky to get two carts exactly the same weight and even if they are they may have stylus position different so after aligning they will balance differently.
Chris
I'M coming across aggressively??

Brother...please don't throw stones when living in a glass house. I appreciate you attempting to ease the quasi-argument when that other member started throwing insulting words at me, calling me a "wee lad" and such for disagreeing with him about the AT95e's so-called "prowess," but this situation in THIS thread is going down the path of the pot calling the kettle black, my man...

That's all I am going to say to you about this; if you have anything further to add regarding using a digital scale ONLY when installing a new cartridge (as opposed to rebalancing the arm and such), I will address it. Otherwise, I will only be responding to members who have stayed on topic.
You really do need to chill..
Chris
Last edited by cafe latte on 29 Apr 2018 01:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 29 Apr 2018 01:43

JoeE SP9 wrote:café latte:
I can't agree with you on this. Whether or not you zero and re-balance an arm makes no difference when using an external balance or scale. If you're using the scale on the weight to determine stylus force yes, you should re-balance the arm.

If you're using an external gauge or balance the only thing that matters is applying the correct amount of downforce.

Personally, I would re-zero the arm first. I'm anal that way. However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
I think we are at crossed purposes here. Ok on my Technics I don't bother with external scale anymore as the Technics calibration seems spot on. I install cart, balance arm and then dial in down force required. If I change cart I do it all over again and each time check cart is level not arm as cart is what is important. ET2 I use my scale as only way to do it on that arm.
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Copperhead » 29 Apr 2018 03:25

smee4 wrote:
Copperhead wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote: However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
Four pages to get here.
Actually some of gave this same opinion long ago but apparently didn't say it correctly. :)
Next question: If the digital scales read 1.5 grams and one moves the numbered bezel to 3 grams, without moving the counterweight, is the reading on the scales still correct? Might have to start another thread on that.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by bra10n » 29 Apr 2018 09:24

Copperhead wrote:Next question: If the digital scales read 1.5 grams and one moves the numbered bezel to 3 grams, without moving the counterweight, is the reading on the scales still correct? Might have to start another thread on that.
Is it?

If one wants to take this to the nth degree moving, sliding, rotating or changing any part of the arm afterward would surely effect a change as minute as it would be.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Copperhead » 29 Apr 2018 12:14

bra10n wrote:
Copperhead wrote:Next question: If the digital scales read 1.5 grams and one moves the numbered bezel to 3 grams, without moving the counterweight, is the reading on the scales still correct? Might have to start another thread on that.
Is it?

If one wants to take this to the nth degree moving, sliding, rotating or changing any part of the arm afterward would surely effect a change as minute as it would be.
Thank you, but it was meant to be a joke.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 29 Apr 2018 20:11

Copperhead wrote:
JoeE SP9 wrote: However, the starting point makes no difference when using an external gauge/balance.
Four pages to get here.
That's ALL I was trying to ascertain, Copper.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 29 Apr 2018 20:12

cafe latte wrote: You really do need to chill..
Chris
Please understand...

You really need to do the same.

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