I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One...

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Quartz_Lock10729
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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 24 Apr 2018 19:43

That's an urban myth. My electronic scale comes with a weight measuring 5 grams. It ALWAYS measures 5 grams, no matter how many times I do it in a row. Plus, that weight measures exactly 5 grams if I take it to the lab and measure it with professional grade equipment. So I don't see how could electronic scales be incorrect, within the 0.01 gram of error margin? All that keeping in mind that exact VTF is not a life-or-death matter.
Indeed, the five gram weight for calibrating the scale I bought which came with it was lost during home renovations, so I use a penny on the scale, which always reads 2.5/2.51 grams (about what a US penny should weigh).

All of that said, I didn't want this thread to go sideways into a digital scale inaccuracy argument; I just wanted to know if I HAD to rebalance my arm to zero weight if I am using a scale to verify VTF.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Gelid » 24 Apr 2018 19:58

Just go right for the VTF with your digital scale. How you get to the correct force (weight) is irrevelant.

Quartz_Lock10729
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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 24 Apr 2018 20:24

Gelid wrote:Just go right for the VTF with your digital scale. How you get to the correct force (weight) is irrevelant.
Thanks Gelid.

Japi Roelofs
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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Japi Roelofs » 24 Apr 2018 21:09

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:I understand what you're saying, but that's precisely why I stated I would begin the process by dialing my counterweight way back to make it much lighter in downforce to begin the measurements of the new cart (which is definitely going to track lighter than the one I'm using now).
If you are going to move back the counterweight, do you know how far back it needs to be?

As has been said before, balancing the tonearm and dialing in tracking force according to the dial on the counterweight gets you in the ballpark, and this prevents too much tracking force being applied. This is the only reason why one would do this. It would actually save some time.

And no, there's nothing that is 'missed' when not balancing and/or using the dial, prior to using the digital scale. It's just a matter of being practical.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 24 Apr 2018 21:35

Japi Roelofs wrote: If you are going to move back the counterweight, do you know how far back it needs to be?
I was going to dial it back to UNDER 1 gram or so just to begin VTF testing...how could that possibly harm the cantilever? It's just to BEGIN taking VTF readings with the scale and then adjust from there...
As has been said before, balancing the tonearm and dialing in tracking force according to the dial on the counterweight gets you in the ballpark, and this prevents too much tracking force being applied. This is the only reason why one would do this. It would actually save some time.

And no, there's nothing that is 'missed' when not balancing and/or using the dial, prior to using the digital scale. It's just a matter of being practical.
Points taken; thanks.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Japi Roelofs » 24 Apr 2018 21:47

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:I was going to dial it back to UNDER 1 gram or so just to begin VTF testing...how could that possibly harm the cantilever? It's just to BEGIN taking VTF readings with the scale and then adjust from there...
In my example of a 5 gram vs a 10 gram cartridge... To keep it simple: if you add 5 grams to the headshell end, the stylus now sees 7 grams of tracking force. If you dial the counterweight back to 1 gram, the stylus still sees 6 grams of tracking force.

I know in reality it's more complicated than just adding or subtracting grams, but you get the point. It's best to have some sort of reference, and balancing provides this reference.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 24 Apr 2018 23:10

duficity wrote:Chris,
Still using the et2 I see. Have you got it dialed in? which cartridge are you using on it?
My Decca super gold lives on the et2. I dont have extra arm wands so I tend not to swap carts on it as it is too much trouble. The Decca sounds amazing on it anyway..
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 24 Apr 2018 23:17

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
That's an urban myth. My electronic scale comes with a weight measuring 5 grams. It ALWAYS measures 5 grams, no matter how many times I do it in a row. Plus, that weight measures exactly 5 grams if I take it to the lab and measure it with professional grade equipment. So I don't see how could electronic scales be incorrect, within the 0.01 gram of error margin? All that keeping in mind that exact VTF is not a life-or-death matter.
Indeed, the five gram weight for calibrating the scale I bought which came with it was lost during home renovations, so I use a penny on the scale, which always reads 2.5/2.51 grams (about what a US penny should weigh).

All of that said, I didn't want this thread to go sideways into a digital scale inaccuracy argument; I just wanted to know if I HAD to rebalance my arm to zero weight if I am using a scale to verify VTF.
I have never ever come across any strain gauge scales that dont drift horribly and believe me I have used plenty. Then there is the dead battery when you come to use it. Like I said there is nothing to be gained anyway with 0.1g accuracy so why would you bother with a digital scale even it it was more accurate which it isnt. I have a dead stylus scale (digital) with dead strain gauge, I hated it having dead batteries anyway when I reached for it. The stylus beam scale needs no batteries and it is hard to break and very accurate what is there not to like..
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Audie » 25 Apr 2018 11:43

Hi Quartz-Lock

Tried a longer post but the MBN keeps tripping.

Briefly, you do not need to rebalance because you are restricted to the AT95e, or others of similar specs.
The AT100armm height is fixed. The only way to alter the VTA is by altering the VTF.

Elliptical stylus cartridges sound great, so enjoy.

Audie

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by JoeE SP9 » 25 Apr 2018 14:54

You can get a Shure SFG-2 for $39 at Amazon.

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 25 Apr 2018 16:19

I have never ever come across any strain gauge scales that dont drift horribly and believe me I have used plenty. Then there is the dead battery when you come to use it. Like I said there is nothing to be gained anyway with 0.1g accuracy so why would you bother with a digital scale even it it was more accurate which it isnt. I have a dead stylus scale (digital) with dead strain gauge, I hated it having dead batteries anyway when I reached for it. The stylus beam scale needs no batteries and it is hard to break and very accurate what is there not to like..
Chris
I will reiterate:

All of that said, I didn't want this thread to go sideways into a digital scale inaccuracy argument

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by Quartz_Lock10729 » 25 Apr 2018 16:20

Audie wrote:Hi Quartz-Lock

Tried a longer post but the MBN keeps tripping.

Briefly, you do not need to rebalance because you are restricted to the AT95e, or others of similar specs.
The AT100armm height is fixed. The only way to alter the VTA is by altering the VTF.

Elliptical stylus cartridges sound great, so enjoy.

Audie
Huh?

Just wanted to know if I needed to rebalance the arm -- regardless of what cart I'm fitting on the table -- being that I'm using a scale to verify VTF... :?:

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by duficity » 27 Apr 2018 20:21

cafe latte wrote:
duficity wrote:Chris,
Still using the et2 I see. Have you got it dialed in? which cartridge are you using on it?
My Decca super gold lives on the et2. I dont have extra arm wands so I tend not to swap carts on it as it is too much trouble. The Decca sounds amazing on it anyway..
Chris
Ive got a few extra et2 arms. Want one?

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by cafe latte » 27 Apr 2018 23:35

Quartz_Lock10729 wrote:
I have never ever come across any strain gauge scales that dont drift horribly and believe me I have used plenty. Then there is the dead battery when you come to use it. Like I said there is nothing to be gained anyway with 0.1g accuracy so why would you bother with a digital scale even it it was more accurate which it isnt. I have a dead stylus scale (digital) with dead strain gauge, I hated it having dead batteries anyway when I reached for it. The stylus beam scale needs no batteries and it is hard to break and very accurate what is there not to like..
Chris
I will reiterate:

All of that said, I didn't want this thread to go sideways into a digital scale inaccuracy argument
Reiterate all you want but read my post properly first.. I also said even if the digital scale is super accurate (which they are not) stylus dont need super duper accuracy with down force anyway and a beam scale does not need batteries.
Chris

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Re: I Could Never Get a Definitive Yes/No Answer on This One

Post by DeepEnd » 28 Apr 2018 14:58

If I remember at the start of the thread the question was

When switching out a cartridge for a replacement/new one, does the tonearm HAVE to be rebalanced doing the whole balancing/zero weight routine if using a digital scale to measure VTF?

Definitive answer is NO

BUT It a lot safer to balance the arm first to avoid accidentally crushing the stylus/cantilever into the scales if the headshell/cartridge are heavier.

Given decent quality nude styli are £100-£200 then 60 seconds more time to balance first is certainly my preference.

I have also noted some questions about the accuracy of the low cost digital scales. I paid £8.00 (~$11.00) for mine and they only read in increments of 0.01g (10mg) (I know some show to 0.001g/1mg e.g. some jewellery scales but the problem is with these even with a wind protector if someone coughs in another room they move a bit so are somewhat pointless).

I also bought some "F2" grade calibration weights (a huge £6.98 inc postage for both) which means my 5g weight should be +/- 0.5mg (or 0.0005g) and the 2g weight +/- 0.4mg (or 0.0004g) and so far more accurate than I need (I also bought some plastic tweezers so I don't change the weight with anything transferred from my hands). I calibrate with the 5g and then check the linearity with the 2g (i.e. closer to the typical tracking weights used) and guess what?

Providing I give them 30 seconds to "warm up and settle" they read correctly every time. In fact even if I don't recal each time I turn them on after thirty seconds and a zero they still read the 2g as 2.00g after a few weeks. Certainly good enough for me

Given the cost of the scale even with the more accurate weights at £15 then paying more for a Shure see-saw scale with inaccuracies due to things like pivot point friction does not see worth it.

If you want to be even more accurate then M1 grade weights would be +/- 0.15mg/0.12mg and even the tighter E2 grade +/- 0.05mg/0.04mg but given the probable tolerance on the compliance of the cartridge of +/- 15% we may be going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

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