Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

compact disc, dacs, mp3 players and streaming audio
Sterling1
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 13 Jan 2019 10:23

Shadowman82 wrote:
13 Jan 2019 00:26
Luck has nothing to do with CD mastering . Unless it's something like classical , jazz or possibly soundtrack scores most CD releases these days are mastered in a way to be as loud as possible which kills dynamics . I mean on paper CD is supposed to have a higher dynamic range than Vinyl but if something is released on both CD and Vinyl the CD release often sounds worse . As for pops and clicks on Vinyl that's the nature of the format , never bothered me at all .
I'm talking about your luck, lke the genres of music you enjoy not being as enjoyable from CD's as they are from Records. You do not accept it; and although that's not strange, what is strange is you do accept vinyl's flaws. I'm confident that, being a critical thinker however, you will work it out, perhaps, a solution would be just to reject all digital media, since you believe most of it is bad.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 13 Jan 2019 20:38

"perhaps, a solution would be just to reject all digital media, since you believe most of it is bad."

I would if I could but alas some music I do like is not available on Vinyl and never was , or it once was and is now out of print and costs a fortune now if you want a good condition copy . And I don't have a problem with digital in general . I thought SA-CD sounded awesome , but again not allot of what I listen to was ever released on that format . Same goes for "better than CD" digital downloads .

But what is it with you ? I mean if you own the Technics SL-1210 GR why did you spend that much on a turntable if you're just going to digitized your records ? Seems like if that is your goal you could have gotten a cheaper DD turntable with the same results . Unless of coarse you still also often listen to your records on your actual turntable . And if you don't believe Vinyl has the potential to sound better than why ever get a Turntable ? Why didn't you just stick with digital ?

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 13 Jan 2019 21:05

Shadowman82 wrote:
13 Jan 2019 20:38
"perhaps, a solution would be just to reject all digital media, since you believe most of it is bad."

I would if I could but alas some music I do like is not available on Vinyl and never was , or it once was and is now out of print and costs a fortune now if you want a good condition copy . And I don't have a problem with digital in general . I thought SA-CD sounded awesome , but again not allot of what I listen to was ever released on that format . Same goes for "better than CD" digital downloads .

But what is it with you ? I mean if you own the Technics SL-1210 GR why did you spend that much on a turntable if you're just going to digitized your records ? Seems like if that is your goal you could have gotten a cheaper DD turntable with the same results . Unless of coarse you still also often listen to your records on your actual turntable . And if you don't believe Vinyl has the potential to sound better than why ever get a Turntable ? Why didn't you just stick with digital ?
I have had a Sony PS-4750 TT for 44 years. It works fine; yet, it is not adaptable to contemporary cartridges over 15mm in height. That's why I bought a Technics. My goal is not digitization, that's just a means to my objective: placement of my record collection within my iTunes Library for convenience, mobility, pop free sound, and graphic equalization. BTW, I have never alluded to vinyl not having the "potential" to sound better than other media storing the same content; but, I only have a few records which realize that status. While I have some new vinyl, mostly purchased for the novelty of it, I'm drawn to LPs produced from the early 1960's to about 1984, or thereabouts, of music I enjoyed during that period. It's generally less expensive than AAC downloads of those LPs.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 13 Jan 2019 22:40

So you do admit that Vinyl has the potential to sound better than other media , at least we agree on something . I believe most Vinyl sounds better than the CD or lower resolution download version of the same album , but not better than SA-CD. In theory anything digital that can match the resolution of the master recording ( which tends to be at least 24-bit/96khz ) should sound great .

I think though unless you're going to do allot of Vinyl listening on an actual turntable , on a good set up than the Sl-1210 GR is much too expensive and high end . Kind of reminds me of this person in another thread you bought the same turntable but had like a $100 dollar cartridge on it . Or someone who buys a $40000 vehicle just to run some errands in town twice a week .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 13 Jan 2019 23:14

Shadowman82 wrote:
13 Jan 2019 22:40
So you do admit that Vinyl has the potential to sound better than other media , at least we agree on something . I believe most Vinyl sounds better than the CD or lower resolution download version of the same album , but not better than SA-CD. In theory anything digital that can match the resolution of the master recording ( which tends to be at least 24-bit/96khz ) should sound great .

I think though unless you're going to do allot of Vinyl listening on an actual turntable , on a good set up than the Sl-1210 GR is much too expensive and high end . Kind of reminds me of this person in another thread you bought the same turntable but had like a $100 dollar cartridge on it . Or someone who buys a $40000 vehicle just to run some errands in town twice a week .
I don't speculate about the performance of my turntable/cartridge being anything less than the best from what is possibe from the technology. Simple comparisons to CDs of same material prove my turntable/cartridge is delivering all there is in the groove to get without distortion of any sort. It seems ideal for it's purpose, digitizing LPs. At any rate, what I want from recorded music media and the equipment which plays that media is a life-like acoustic sound, or a ear pleasing electronic sound. For the genres/artists I like: SACD, multi-channel SACD, CD, and AAC bring me a most satisfing experience; and, since those mediums are satisfing, I don't have any compulsion to play LPs, except to digitize them.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 14 Jan 2019 00:39

"For the genres/artists I like: SACD, multi-channel SACD, CD, and AAC bring me a most satisfing experience . I don't have any compulsion to play LPs, except to digitize them."

This makes no sense though , I mean if you have no interest in actually playing Vinyl on a turntable then why did you ever buy Vinyl discs and a turntable in the first place . Why not just stick to SACDs , CDs and AAC then ? I got into Vinyl and bought a turntable because I think it sounds better than any digital format except for SACD and all the Vinyl I buy I listen to on my Technics SL-1200 M3D .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 14 Jan 2019 05:57

Shadowman82 wrote:
14 Jan 2019 00:39
"For the genres/artists I like: SACD, multi-channel SACD, CD, and AAC bring me a most satisfing experience . I don't have any compulsion to play LPs, except to digitize them."

This makes no sense though , I mean if you have no interest in actually playing Vinyl on a turntable then why did you ever buy Vinyl discs and a turntable in the first place . Why not just stick to SACDs , CDs and AAC then ? I got into Vinyl and bought a turntable because I think it sounds better than any digital format except for SACD and all the Vinyl I buy I listen to on my Technics SL-1200 M3D .
Why did I buy vinyl in the first place? I bought my turntable in 1974 or thereabouts. At that time, there was no internet, there were no CDs, and in fact, for the most part, LPs and Compact Cassettes were the only recorded audio media out there in that pre-digital world; therefore, I bought records back then, lots of them, since it was the only practical means to recorded music entertainment. I still have those records, along with records I have inherited. At any rate, after the advent of the Compact Disc, I abandoned records and mothballed my turntable, finding CDs to be more attractive over all; but, when ripping LPs became possible, I unboxed my turntable again to digitize my LP collection. Early on, I discovered digitization permitted me to enjoy the music on my LPs more conveniently, and without the distraction of pops, so I have continued to digitize my LP collection, as well as occasionally purchase used records of interest, which I intend to digitize.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 15 Jan 2019 00:44

Ah I see . I guess that kind of makes sense but I still say you could have done the same with a much cheaper Turntable than the Technics SL-1200 GR . I think there is even a Sony Turntable that let's you rip Vinyl into DSD files .

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Post by Sterling1 » 15 Jan 2019 10:35

Shadowman82 wrote:
15 Jan 2019 00:44
Ah I see . I guess that kind of makes sense but I still say you could have done the same with a much cheaper Turntable than the Technics SL-1200 GR . I think there is even a Sony Turntable that let's you rip Vinyl into DSD files .
I began digitizing without any new expense other than ripping software, using my 44 year old turntable and 30+ year old cartridge; whereby, the digitizatiions could not be distinguished from the LPs. Yet, these digitizations did sound somewhat different than CDs of same material. This caused me to think that perhaps my turntable/cartridge was not getting all there was in the groove to get; and, after all, my turntable did not have quartz-lock, leveling feet, or a means to adjust VTA. Doing some research, where I looked at many means to play records, including the Sony you mentioned, I concluded a Technics SL-1200 from some era would get more out of the groove and might also be the best value. I began looking for a used one, since at that time there were no new one's out there. While looking, I became aware, early in 2016, that Technics would be bringing out new SL-1200 production, so, when the GR came out I bought one. Now, could I have taken an alternative route which would have saved me some money and produced the same result? I do not know. I do know however from my research, there is no turntable out there for less money which is as adjustable/accomodating to the variety of cartridges being marketed today; and, I know that there is no less expensive turntable out there which over all has better specifications than the GR. These facts made me believe the GR was the TT I needed. As it has turned out, it was a good decision, that's to say, the GR fitted with a Shure V15V/Jico SAS does appear to be getting everything out of the groove, producing digitizations which I cannot distinguish from CDs of same recorded content. Now, although I may have spent more than necessary to get the job done, I also could have spent more. So, while I'll never know if I spent too much, I do know that I spent enough. :D BTW, I still have my PS-4750. For grins and giggles I fitted it with a Shure M97xE and produced this YouTube Video, using my digitization process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZEHEvh17dg

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 15 Jan 2019 20:47

There is no question that for it's price the SL-1200 GR is probably going to get you better performance than most anything else . It really depends on just what kind of resolution you are digitizing your records at . If it's something equivalent to somewhere in the 24-bit/96khz range then having a great Turntable like the GR certainly helps . But if you were to digitize at CD resolution or lower then I think you would have gotten similar results with the Sony I mentioned or some offering from Audio Technica or Stanton or Denon .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 16 Jan 2019 13:14

Shadowman82 wrote:
15 Jan 2019 20:47
There is no question that for it's price the SL-1200 GR is probably going to get you better performance than most anything else . It really depends on just what kind of resolution you are digitizing your records at . If it's something equivalent to somewhere in the 24-bit/96khz range then having a great Turntable like the GR certainly helps . But if you were to digitize at CD resolution or lower then I think you would have gotten similar results with the Sony I mentioned or some offering from Audio Technica or Stanton or Denon .
I began digitizing LPs before there was a term for it, or even software for it, creating DATs of my LPs at 16/48. These DATs, which I still have in my library, are indistinguishable from WHATEVER the sound quality delivered from the input source: 1/4 inch 15 ips analog tape, LPs, DAT, CDs, or Compact Cassettes; therefore, while I have the ability today to digitize at 192, there does not appear to be a benefit. In fact the only benefit from 192 I've heard comes from up-sampling AAC iTunes files of 50's and 60's music to 192. Now, since a 48kHz recording will pick-up all that's on an LP, it is the TT/Cartridge which extends or diminishes the results, not a hi-res recording process. In other words, at any bit and bite rate, the best results will come from source components which have the best measurements. If I was using a TT from your guidance a "similar" result would not be the product of lower resolution. it would be a product of similar TT/cartridge measurements. Be a critical thinker, about this stuff. :D

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 16 Jan 2019 22:59

"Now, since a 48kHz recording will pick-up all that's on an LP, it is the TT/Cartridge which extends or diminishes the results, not a hi-res recording process"

I disagree with you there , while some people may say that a sampling rate like 48khz is good enough the fact does remain that most modern digital master recordings will have at least a sampling rate of 96khz . If there was no benefit to that I doubt they would record at that quality . In fact I think Vinyl sounds often better than CD for two reasons , one they are often better mastered and two they are not limited to the bit and sampling rate of the CD . That being said this would only apply if you rip your Vinyl into a format that is capable of such lossless quality . If you just rip it as MP3s or AAC then I reckon it would indeed be good enough for that .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 17 Jan 2019 01:58

Shadowman82 wrote:
16 Jan 2019 22:59
"Now, since a 48kHz recording will pick-up all that's on an LP, it is the TT/Cartridge which extends or diminishes the results, not a hi-res recording process"

I disagree with you there , while some people may say that a sampling rate like 48khz is good enough the fact does remain that most modern digital master recordings will have at least a sampling rate of 96khz . If there was no benefit to that I doubt they would record at that quality . In fact I think Vinyl sounds often better than CD for two reasons , one they are often better mastered and two they are not limited to the bit and sampling rate of the CD . That being said this would only apply if you rip your Vinyl into a format that is capable of such lossless quality . If you just rip it as MP3s or AAC then I reckon it would indeed be good enough for that .
Modern recording is from electrionics or mic direct to digital DAW so 24/96 provides headroom. That headroom is meaningless when digitizing an analog recording, since the recording level has earlier been set.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 17 Jan 2019 14:37

Shadowman82 wrote:
16 Jan 2019 22:59
"Now, since a 48kHz recording will pick-up all that's on an LP, it is the TT/Cartridge which extends or diminishes the results, not a hi-res recording process"

I disagree with you there , while some people may say that a sampling rate like 48khz is good enough the fact does remain that most modern digital master recordings will have at least a sampling rate of 96khz . If there was no benefit to that I doubt they would record at that quality . In fact I think Vinyl sounds often better than CD for two reasons , one they are often better mastered and two they are not limited to the bit and sampling rate of the CD . That being said this would only apply if you rip your Vinyl into a format that is capable of such lossless quality . If you just rip it as MP3s or AAC then I reckon it would indeed be good enough for that .
One more thing, the sales pitch Sony uses to promote its Hi-Res usb turntable, implies that riping from the turntable's ADC at 24/96 will deliver a digitization more faithful to the LP than an MP3 digitization. That statement is truthful; yet, meaningless, since folks can digitize LPs faithfully today at 16/44 without fear of exceeding hard drive space and still use less hard disc space than Hi-Res, which is important to folks who want to place their coumputer's music library onto their iPads and iPhones. On the other hand, if hard disc storage space is of no concern digitizing to 24/96 or even 24/192 causes no harm. Where Hi-Res is beneficial is improving the sound of early MP3 productions of analog recordings.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by dysmike » 17 Jan 2019 14:53

wrote:
17 Jan 2019 14:38

I've not really understood the purpose of ripping LP's unless it is literally your only source of the music. If I want a good quality recording I just get it off torrent, even though I have the vinyl.
There are a lot of things I have that are only available on vinyl, and I'd prefer to legally reproduce it than pirate it.