Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

compact disc, dacs, mp3 players and streaming audio
terry-a
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by terry-a » 19 Dec 2018 00:42

Shadowman82 wrote:
19 Dec 2018 00:28
Yeah and it seems allot of people who do want to keep a music library are going to Vinyl . That I believe is one of the reasons why Vinyl has been able to reach 18% of all album sales in the US . In a way the loudness war on CDs probably also contributes to this . There is also the possibility that allot of people have never even heard high resolution digital ( better than CD) in action but make assumptions that it sounds bad because allot of CDs sound bad . You know they think that because CDs sound bad that all digital must therefor sound bad .
I don't really think that most people assume digital sounds bad. I think that most people listen primarily to digital music of some sort and don't bother to concern themselves with how good or bad it sounds. They don't make the quality of what they're hearing a priority. There's nothing at all wrong with this approach. We're the rare birds.

Roberto C2H3
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Roberto C2H3 » 19 Dec 2018 21:38

The latest Methany album on CD released in Argentina is unlisteanable due to this loudness curse #-o

Shadowman82
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 20 Dec 2018 23:27

"More and more, it is looking like the only physical format that will last is vinyl. At least for the foreseeable future."

Yeah I see that trend as well though I suspect we're still some years away from the demise of the CD .

Shadowman82
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 22 Dec 2018 00:16

yeah I'm not sure why some people think Cassettes are cool . They were always sonically inferior to Vinyl and with time stopped working properly .

Shadowman82
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 22 Dec 2018 22:02

Yes Cassettes were great for portable things like a car radio or a walkman and also good for kids as they couldn't be broken or scratched the way Vinyl can . But after some years they stop playing correctly . In fact from what I have heard even analog master tapes will oxidize over time .

Issuesman666
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Issuesman666 » 28 Dec 2018 01:56

Shadowman82 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 22:02
Yes Cassettes were great for portable things like a car radio or a walkman and also good for kids as they couldn't be broken or scratched the way Vinyl can . But after some years they stop playing correctly . In fact from what I have heard even analog master tapes will oxidize over time .
I agree that cassettes suck(I have many).They don't last and lose their fidelity over time.I still listen to them if they are in decent sounding condition.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 28 Dec 2018 10:10

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Here's my 30 year old Sony Compact Cassette Recorder. I still use it to create playlists from LPs for use in my 2000 Camaro SS's cassette player. It rivals the sound of LP's even with type 1 tape.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Tonybro » 28 Dec 2018 10:21

I have many cassettes (not pre-recorded) on high quality chrome and metal formulations from the 80s and early 90s and they sound amazing now, 30 years later.

Shadowman82
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 28 Dec 2018 23:35

It's not that Cassettes always sounded bad but even if you stored them well over time they stop playing .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Sterling1 » 29 Dec 2018 11:53

Shadowman82 wrote:
28 Dec 2018 23:35
It's not that Cassettes always sounded bad but even if you stored them well over time they stop playing .
I have cassette tapes which I am certain I have not played in over 30 years which still play as nicely as they did 30+ years ago. I know this having discovered cassette tapes boxed up in my basement the other day, which I thought might be entertaining to listen to. Now, what usually does not play is the cassette player: belts, caps, and rollers just disintegrate over time. I recently had to have my recorder repaired, and now all is well.

Shadowman82
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 30 Dec 2018 21:07

Well I do remember that I used to have commercially released music Cassettes that stopped playing correctly after some years . Not sure exactly what determined how long Cassette Tapes last . But since Cassette tapes were never able to match the fidelity of Vinyl ( though I heard Metal Type came close) I don't really see the point in once again releasing music in the format now that we have digital files for when you want your music to be portable .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by 1770_ron » 04 Jan 2019 21:39

Shadowman82 wrote:
04 Dec 2018 22:12
Here is something I don't quite understand . Why are allot of CDs still falling victim to the "loudness war" during mastering . I mean these days those who don't care about dynamics and fidelity will listen to music as MP3s and on streaming services . Those who still buy CDs now do I think care at least a little about sound quality so then why still master CDs in a way that diminishes sound quality ?
Excellent points. Given that casual non-audiophile users have bailed on the CD format, I don't think it would be rocket science for record companies to issue "uncompressed pure" audio on CDs, and even advertise the fact as a means of keeping the compact disc format commercially viable as a niche format.

Until recently, most classical music CDs were uncompressed. However, in reading Amazon reviews of some of the low-priced white box Sony Master Series CDs, I've seen reviews indicating that in some cases the producers in fact used compression and loudness punching. See reviews of the Leinsdorf/Boston Sympony box of Prokofiev orchestral works and the Bruno Walter box of Mozart orchestral works to see what I'm talking about. I would guess that in the case of the low-priced box sets, the remastering engineers and producers are young folks who have zero knowledge or appreciation of the role of dynamic range, tonal accuracy and imaging depth pertaining to classical music. Go figure! At least when I received the now-OOP Rubinstein Complete Recordings box, I noticed that the remastering of the 144 discs was outstanding with superb sound even on the older items transcribed from 1920s-vintage 78 rpm shellacs.

Shadowman82
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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Shadowman82 » 05 Jan 2019 22:34

Exactly , people who don't care about sound quality and want music loud listen to MP3s and the like so still mastering CDs this way makes no sense . As you pointed out I can see this being the case with cheap compulations but with actual new releases it boggles the mind .

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by Bonzo_Dog » 06 Jan 2019 14:51

IMHO the issue isn't high res or CD-quality, but a well made master.

The record companies should have done it right the first time with one good master as a basis for all formats (including streaming). Then make re-pressing of this when the demand is there.

I have an LP from 2013 that came with a CD. I made a digital rip of the LP with a crest factor of 17,7 (volume increased to somewhere between -1 to 0 dB) compared to the crest factor of the CD that was 13,8.

I have another LP from 2017 that came with a download ticket from bandcamp. I made a digital rip of this LP with a crest factor of 14,8 (volume increased to somewhere between -1 to 0 dB) compared to the crest factor of the downloaded FLAC-files that was 8,6.

In both cases the digital LP rip sounded a lot better than the CD/downloaded FLAC which gave an annoying and tiring listening experience.

I don't understand why they mess up the digital versions like this when they obviously have a well sounding master.

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Re: Why is "loudness war" still an issue on CD

Post by dysmike » 06 Jan 2019 15:30

I do not think a single master is good for all media. I think that you can go a lot more bass heavy, for example, on anything digital or tape based compared to vinyl. Then there's the delivery system (speakers, headphones, ear buds, etc). From those that I've listened to it seems to me that the engineer is stuck having to hit a happy medium for those.

Then you have the issue where I believe many people LIKE the over-compressed, overly loud, sound. This is probably because it's simply what they're used to.