the home of the turntable

Denon DL 103 or DL 103R

the thin end of the wedge

Re: Denon DL 103 or DL 103R

Postby Hanuman » 18 Apr 2013 17:43

gabriel1998 wrote:Where did you come up with the Dynamic Compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyne? Both on this website and on the documentation it states 5x10-6cm/dyn for the 103 and 103r.

There has been plenty of doubt expressed on this forum about the stated compliance of the DL-103, usually to the effect that the actual compliance is higher than indicated. I'm inclined to agree with the doubters. I have SPU cartridges which also claim 5x10-6cm/dyn compliance. The Meister Silver, for example, measures a lateral resonance on my tonearm of about 9Hz while the DL-103R (in a heavy FR S/3 headshell) measures something closer to 7Hz, strong evidence that the '103 is of a higher compliance than the SPU. The slight weight difference (combined FR/Denon: 28.5g; SPU: 32g) doesn't account for much of the difference.
“I don’t hold with furniture that talks.” - Titus Moody
Hanuman
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 920
Images: 82
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 07:59
Location: Bangkok

Re: Denon DL 103 or DL 103R

Postby abs1 » 18 Apr 2013 20:56

gabriel1998 wrote:
abs1 wrote:
With a tonearm effective mass of 20g, a cartridge weight of 9g (including screws), and a dynamic compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyn the resonance works out to be 9Hz which is in the green preferred resonance range. All good so far?
Al



Where did you come up with the Dynamic Compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyne? Both on this website and on the documentation it states 5x10-6cm/dyn for the 103 and 103r. My 103D has a 12x10-6cm/dyne compliance.


Denon publishes their dynamic compliance specs at a different level (100Hz) than most charts and some other cartridge manufacturers (10Hz), so if you work it out so you can compare specs the 5x10-6cm/dyn that Denon quotes is pretty much equal to 10x10-6cm/dyn. I'll admit that I didn't do the math myself. It was easier, in this case, to rely on the research that was conducted by John Elison on this subject.

Cheers,
Al
VPI Traveler, Denon DL-103r, Denon AU300-LC SUT, EAR 834P MM phono stage, Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum (KT120's) integrated, Jolida JD100A tube CD player, Audio Note 2.1B DAC, Tekton Design M-Lore towers. Shure M97xE w/SAS, Grado Gold1, Denon DL-103 as spares.
abs1
member
member
 
Posts: 131
Joined: 08 Oct 2012 18:17
Location: Western Colorado

United States of America

Re: Denon DL 103 or DL 103R

Postby gabriel1998 » 18 Apr 2013 21:10

abs1 wrote:
gabriel1998 wrote:
abs1 wrote:
With a tonearm effective mass of 20g, a cartridge weight of 9g (including screws), and a dynamic compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyn the resonance works out to be 9Hz which is in the green preferred resonance range. All good so far?
Al



Where did you come up with the Dynamic Compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyne? Both on this website and on the documentation it states 5x10-6cm/dyn for the 103 and 103r. My 103D has a 12x10-6cm/dyne compliance.


Denon publishes their dynamic compliance specs at a different level (100Hz) than most charts and some other cartridge manufacturers (10Hz), so if you work it out so you can compare specs the 5x10-6cm/dyn that Denon quotes is pretty much equal to 10x10-6cm/dyn. I'll admit that I didn't do the math myself. It was easier, in this case, to rely on the research that was conducted by John Elison on this subject.

Cheers,
Al


So its Double the amount stated? So my Denon 103D has a compliance of 24x10-6cm/dyne? You would think that after 60 years of producing this Denon, they would get on board like the rest of the cartridge Manufacturers. The Denon dla100 which came out last years is basically a denon 103 in a clear casing also has a compliance of 5x10-6cm/dyne :?
Lenco L75|AM Tonearm|Denon 103D WB| Bob's Cinemag|Hagerman Cornet 2|Aikido Octal Linestage|Denon POA 1500|Tubelab SSE| Axiom M60ti
gabriel1998
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 323
Images: 10
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 12:39
Location: Virginia

Re: Denon DL 103 or DL 103R

Postby gabriel1998 » 18 Apr 2013 21:58

Hanuman wrote:
gabriel1998 wrote:Where did you come up with the Dynamic Compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyne? Both on this website and on the documentation it states 5x10-6cm/dyn for the 103 and 103r.

There has been plenty of doubt expressed on this forum about the stated compliance of the DL-103, usually to the effect that the actual compliance is higher than indicated. I'm inclined to agree with the doubters. I have SPU cartridges which also claim 5x10-6cm/dyn compliance. The Meister Silver, for example, measures a lateral resonance on my tonearm of about 9Hz while the DL-103R (in a heavy FR S/3 headshell) measures something closer to 7Hz, strong evidence that the '103 is of a higher compliance than the SPU. The slight weight difference (combined FR/Denon: 28.5g; SPU: 32g) doesn't account for much of the difference.


I have an Original Blue Note Mono RVG "P" Hank Mobley The Turnaround Lp that has a weird Bubble on the first track. My Denon 103, 103R and DLA-100 all tracks the hell out of it, You can't even notice but my 103D will absolutely not get passed it. Like a cowboy on a rodeo bull. Tried every possible idea, VTF, vta, Added Mass. Nothing. For the longest time I thought my 103D had a busted suspension or the stylus was worn until one Christmas morning under the tree was a Dynavector 20x2. To my great disappointment, it exhibits the same thing as the 103D.. I Thought WTF? tonearm?

Until I looked at the Compliance:

Denon 103 = 5x10-6cm/dyne
Denon DLA-100 = 5x10-6cm/dyne
Denon 103R = 5x10-6cm/dyne
Denon 103D = 12x10-6cm/dyne
Dynavector 20x2M = 12x10-6cm/dyne

So if Denon publishes their Compliance a different way than Dynavector does also. So a Denon 103 with a Compliance of 10x10-6cm/dyne? According to my warped record? Love to get on a cartridge with a stated 10x10-6cm/dyne to test.
Lenco L75|AM Tonearm|Denon 103D WB| Bob's Cinemag|Hagerman Cornet 2|Aikido Octal Linestage|Denon POA 1500|Tubelab SSE| Axiom M60ti
gabriel1998
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 323
Images: 10
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 12:39
Location: Virginia

Re: Denon DL 103 or DL 103R

Postby OneyedK » 19 Apr 2013 11:03

gabriel1998 wrote:I Thought WTF? tonearm?

What you should've thought was: DAMPING

Tuning mass/compliance get's your resonance frequency in the right range.
It doesn't solve the resonance amplitude.
Damping can keep that amplitude/resonance in check.

Both cartridge and tonearm have a small amount of damping present.
Sometimes it helps to tune the resonance frequency to where damping is sufficient.

In your case, I think this "balance" is rather good with the 103, 103R and 100.
With the 103D and 20X2 you have a case of insufficiënt damping.
If I were you, I'd simply use the 100 or the 103R.
If you want better high frequency extension, have one of them retipped...
Technics SL-1200 Mk2 recapped / MN bearing / Funk Firm Platter / Denon 103R / Lundahl LL1681
Thorens TD 126 MkIII / SME Series III / Ortofon SME 30H // AT-OC9ML/II
Thorens TD 160 / TP16 / Stanton 681SE
Denon DP-1200 - WIP -
OneyedK
long player
long player
 
Posts: 1279
Images: 1
Joined: 26 Aug 2010 19:48
Location: Mechelen, Belgium

Belgium

Next

Return to Cartridges and Preamps