Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl ..

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fscl
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Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by fscl » 07 Dec 2012 15:59

On my coveted Johnny Winter, Second Winter.....
:wink: From the liner notes:
We went to Nashville to cut our album. The original plan was to cut as much material as possible and pick the best of what was cut to make up a regular one-record album. After we finished, we found out that if all the songs were used we might lose some volume if only one record were used. Since it was very important to us that our album was as loud as is technically possible, we had a problem. We had cut everything that we wanted to and everything we had planned on doing and we didn't have anything else that we really wanted to do. We also really liked everything we'd done and didn't want to leave any of the songs out. We couldn't honestly give you more, and we certainly didn't want to give you less, so here is exactly what we did in Nashville----no more and no less. Johnny Winter
Never have I seen more deadwax than in recent new vinyl and new vinyl reissues....... :shock: :shock:

I included the liner note from another post as it seems that in the past, preserving volume, meant larger amplitude at the origin, needlepoint, necessitating the use of more vinyl realestate which makes perfect sense.

It started with MD's King of Blue deluxe box set vinyl reissue and numerous newer vinyl...... :-k :-k Music that took one side in the past now fitting well within the side of one modern vinyl...... :-k :-k I'm wondering with modern computer control of cutting lathes that we (as vinyl stalwarts) are experiencing the pinnacle of vinyl development...... :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k

An optimal time in frequency vs no / low noise vs volume vs content (minutes) vs.... etc

Is vinyl still subject to "Moore's Law"........ :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k

Fred and curious.... :) The circuit pathways are now subatomic where in history is the "groove".... :D

davidsss
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Re: Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by davidsss » 08 Dec 2012 05:16

Interesting question, not one I am qualified to answer. However, one observation.

I have a few copies of The Rolling Stones' Sticky Fingers. I have an Aus pressing, MFSL and a Japanese pressing. The Japanese pressing is the best by a fair margin. One really noticeable aspect of the Jap pressing is that the music ends far closer to the label than the others. In other words they use more of the record's surface to fit the music in. I always wonder a bit when the same music is squeezed into less space. I know that larger grooves can give higher volume but I sometimes wonder whether closer or smaller grooves can make quality suffer.

In the context of your post above, I would think that more deadwax may reflect the opposite of being at the pinnacle of record development, that we may be moving backwards.

DS

PS, do you have Second Winter? Great album and it would be a travesty to try and fit it on 2 sides and possibly impact upon the quality of the music reproduction.

fscl
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Re: Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by fscl » 09 Dec 2012 18:47

davidsss wrote:Interesting question, not one I am qualified to answer. However, one observation.

I have a few copies of The Rolling Stones' Sticky Fingers. I have an Aus pressing, MFSL and a Japanese pressing. The Japanese pressing is the best by a fair margin. One really noticeable aspect of the Jap pressing is that the music ends far closer to the label than the others. In other words they use more of the record's surface to fit the music in. I always wonder a bit when the same music is squeezed into less space. I know that larger grooves can give higher volume but I sometimes wonder whether closer or smaller grooves can make quality suffer.

In the context of your post above, I would think that more deadwax may reflect the opposite of being at the pinnacle of record development, that we may be moving backwards.

DS

PS, do you have Second Winter? Great album and it would be a travesty to try and fit it on 2 sides and possibly impact upon the quality of the music reproduction.
I was hoping to attract current laquer cutters experience, wondering if there's trade secrets to protect...... :-k :-?

From following our own Phil Brown posts, IIRC, groove spacings were eventually variable with feedforward control @ the cutter head so groove spacing would be preserved and prevent skipping in louder passages......:-k :-k (ie mp3s VBR @ 320....:-k ) In this modern day and age of fine digital control systems, thinking this has been further refined to consider the strength of vinyl material allowing for closer spacing, preserving loud passages and full frequencies across the board. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that the entire final remixed master would first be computer optimized for optimal "nesting" on production laquers....:-k :-k :-k allowing for either more music in the same space or in the case of this post, more deadwax.....:-k :-k :-k

Yes, I have a Second Winter which I love and purchased new 30+ years ago and it would have been a travesty if cut onto one disc. Saw Johnny and Edgar LONG ago at SUNY Albany who were the headliners but came on first as they were already kind of late for the gig and had to fly off to another one. After their set, the warm up / opening band came on, brand new at the time....Loggins and Messina..... :shock: :shock: :D

Fred and use the blank 4th side for anti-bias / anti-skate experimentation.... now along with Dick's Picks Vol 2....... :D

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Re: Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by youngdand » 08 Jan 2013 17:45

Now im not sure whether its volume or dynamic range, but if you take a look at the grooves on the telarc copy of 1812 overture, at the end with the cannons, the spacing has got to be nearly 1 mm and you can visually trace the wave around the disc.

http://www.fl-electronic.de/analog/images/1812-2.jpg
http://www.fl-electronic.de/analog/images/1812-1.jpg

fscl
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Re: Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by fscl » 08 Jan 2013 18:34

youngdand wrote:Now im not sure whether its volume or dynamic range, but if you take a look at the grooves on the telarc copy of 1812 overture, at the end with the cannons, the spacing has got to be nearly 1 mm and you can visually trace the wave around the disc.
GREAT PICS...... :shock: :shock: =D> =D>

Thanks for that....... :)

Now that I've seen the grooves, it's not too hard to believe this past post by JoeE SP9:

viewtopic.php?p=142914

Fred and wonder how many cannon shots can fit on a side of an LP..... :-k :shock: :shock:

JoeE SP9
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Re: Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by JoeE SP9 » 08 Jan 2013 22:27

Yes, it snapped the diamond tip off the cantilever on a Shure V-15IV. This happened not long after I purchased the LP as a new release. IIRC it was ~1980. The LP came with an Obi and a warning on a pink sheet of paper. I still have the LP the Obi and the pink warning sheet.

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Re: Deadwax and New / Reissued Vinyl.....

Post by pivot » 08 Jan 2013 23:18

Hated that damn "1812" in the Hi Fi showroom I worked.

Never mind if a cartridge/tonearm could put in the same room with Kiri Te Kanawa, if it failed to track those damn cannons it was no damn good.

Not a great musical performance either. Timings and tempo are off. If you must listen to the 1812 (even Tchaikovsky would try to talk you out of it) get the Minneapolis under Dorati on Mercury.

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