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Too Much Bass

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Too Much Bass

Postby davestef » 09 May 2011 01:13

so i bought this LP that has this song on it with alot of bass. well they all have a lot of bass. and its annoying kuz everytime i play it on my turntable as soon as the needle reaches the bass part it just flicks off and skips a little forward and it keeps randomly doing that through out the bassy part. i tried increasing the tracking weight. i usually keep the weight at 2. but i turned it all the way up as far as it would go and it was a little better but the needle still skipped. i dont have a tracking weight scale thing, ive just been zeroing the counterweight once the needle balances level. but i made the tracking weight as heavy as possible and it still skipped. not sure what the problem is. its a Technics turntable. i believe the needle is elliptical diamond tip. maybe thats its? its not a circular tip? anyway. heres the song. i thought it was gonna sound awesome now that i hooked up a sub to my system, let me know if u have any advice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOT2-OTe ... ure=relmfu
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Postby smeg68 » 09 May 2011 01:32

Does it still skip with the sub turned off? If not, you have acoustic feedback into your turntable.

If it does - you need to check your cartridge setup. No way should a cart skip out of the groove if set up ok.
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Record Skipping

Postby josephazannieri » 09 May 2011 02:42

Yo davestef:

Turn the turntable off, or unplug it. Take any record and lay it on the turntable. Put arm on record with turntable standing still, turn the volume up to normal listening volume and see what happens. If you have acoustic feedback, you will see the arm start to shake after a little bit. You will also hear the sound, even though the record is not playing. At some point, stylus will probably jump out of groove, even though music is not playing.

Where do you have the bass control set? I think you may have it turned up. Try restoring the bass control to the center position. Also, try turning the subwoofer down, if it is nailed. If you have the bass too loud, beyond flat response, you will have all sorts of problems showing up. If you have way low frequencies accentuated like a tone control does, it will cause problems.

How close are your speakers and the turntable? The closer they are, the more likely you will have feedback. The cure may be a wall mounted shelf or some other solid mounting. It also may help if you get the speakers, including the sub, off the floor a little, either with speaker stands or with a couple of hundred pounds of weight beneath them. Mass absorbs sound vibrations. There are other suggestions for getting rid of feedback, but first you need to know if you have it. I had to struggle with feedback, even with a wall mounted shelf, but I figured how to get rid of it, so I have more suggestions.

And good luck from that heavy old back-feeder,

Joe Z.
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Postby davestef » 09 May 2011 05:54

well its a too late at night to test it :P but for one thing the speakers are on the carpet and the turntable is on a small table thing which is also on the carpet. the turntable is maybe two feet from the Left speaker, its pretty much right next to the table. the right speaker is eight or ten feet away from the left speaker on the other side of the sliding door. the sub is on the floor next to the right speaker in the middle. the stylus used to skip on this other record i had with a lot of bass too, and that was before i had a sub hooked up.
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Postby davestef » 09 May 2011 06:28

i actually just gave the record a spin on the turntable with out the amp/speakers turned on. and it still skips right through the bass part. it literally skips like three or four times until it hits the next part without bass. it skips through a section of the song thats like 30 sec or so long within like 5 seconds, u can see the needle jump then land for a sec then jump again. with no speakers turned on. the bass is fine on all my rock vinyl but vinyl that has that electronic/hiphop super low bass it has problems with.
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Postby Alec124c41 » 09 May 2011 06:39

What cartridge and stylus are you using?

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Skipping

Postby josephazannieri » 09 May 2011 14:58

Yo davestef:

If you tried it without turning amp and speaker on, and it still skipped, there are a couple of possible issues:

(1) bad cartridge or stylus
(2) arm cartridge resonance problem that is in the area of the bass note frequency on that particular record.

You say Technics turntable. What model? Alec already asked what kind of cartridge and stylus. Knowing that would help.

I see an experiment you can try. Get a nickel and tape it to the top of the headshell. Rebalance the arm to zero and reset the stylus pressure to 3 grams or so. If you have a resonance in the area of that bass note, this procedure will drop that resonance, perhaps out of the range of that note.

I don't guarantee that this will work, and you may have to replace that cartridge with another one better suited to that arm. Many years ago (1967) I had a Garrard 4HF with a heavy arm. I put a Shure M3D in it, and it started to skip on one particular record, at one point on the record, similar to what yours is doing. I changed the cartridge for a GE VR-II and that cured the problem.

Your arm may be too light for your cartridge, and you may have a resonance in the audio area that is occurring at the frequency of this bass note.

And good luck from the old guy with all the crude experiments,

Joe Z.
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Postby davestef » 11 May 2011 01:29

its definitely the needle/cartridge or the tracking weight. cause i just played it on my cheaper sony turntable and it played right through.
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Postby Alec124c41 » 11 May 2011 06:41

Dave, what cartridge are you using?

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Postby davestef » 14 May 2011 00:48

pickering D AT 2
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Postby Alec124c41 » 14 May 2011 06:56

The DAT2 is a spherical stylus, supposed to track at 2 to 5 grams, probably on a V-15 cartridge. If it won't track what you want to play at 5 grams, you might want to try another cartridge that has better tracking ability.
I must admit to having almost no experience with Pickering cartridges.

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Postby Whitneyville » 14 May 2011 07:40

No experience with a DAT2, but nearly a year's worth with the older XV-15. it and the 625E stylus will track nearly anything. If the budget allows $100, the Audio-Technica A-T 440MLa is your meat. It tracks better than a coon dog on a damp evening and at less than 1 1/2 grams (usually MUCH less) and has a Micro-Line stylus for minimum record/stylus wear. It's a $450 MSRP cartridge that's still available for $99.99.99 on feebay. It probably won't be as mellow as the Pickering, but some break-in time and a little adjustment of the treble control can help. Try and move the TT behind the speakers if at all possible, and frankly, you can spend three times as much money on a cartridge and while it will sound different, it's really hard to say objectively it will sound better than the A-T440MLa, and I doubt many can say any cartridge/stylus for near the money will track as well, when set-up correctly. You can call the nice people at www,LPGear.com or http://www.garage-a-record.com and ask them about an "upgrade stylus". Both show a "generic" (that's all that's available) .3x.7 mil elliptical for $20-30. GAR's 4604de DAME-2 for $19.95 looks unbeatable and tracks at .73-1.5 grams in your cartridge. That's a bargain in my skin-flint book. I have a "generic" in my XV-15, that's the same "specs" and I'm very pleased with it. Personally, I'd try the DAME-2 for about $24 with S&H first (we'll tell you the "secrets" of adjusting the VTF with and without the brush, but use the brush!), and the dark world of "ALIGNMENT" (no big deal either), and I'll bet with a new stylus, it will track that heavy bass without a problem!
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Low Note

Postby josephazannieri » 14 May 2011 16:49

Yo davestef:

I went back and listened to that record again. That note is very low, because you hear it as separate pulses, rather than as a continuous sound. It also has a fairly high amplitude, which means it is really loud. This means that it is likely loud enough so it will throw some energy into the arm. Listening again, I think that a higher compliance cartridge than that Pickering might be the answer. You need to lower the arm cartridge resonance out of the audio range, and you can do that either by using a higher compliance cartridge, in the range of 1.5 grams, or by adding to the mass of the arm. That is why I suggested adding some weight to the end of the arm, right over the cartridge, rebalancing the arm, and seeing if increased mass will lower arm cartridge resonance out of range of that note.

Everybody loves that AT 440, and it's not bad, but I would suggest a Shure M97E. It has the high compliance you need, and also, it has that dynamic stabilizer that really reduces the peak at the arm cartridge resonance. I have used an M97 in my old Lenco L75, which has a really massive arm, and it worked fine, despite high compliance. The HIFI-natics don't like M97 because it has what they describe as a rolled off top end. I think it's just about right, but what the hell do I know?

Whitneyville's suggestion of the DAME stylus for the Pickering is also a good idea, since the brush will also act to reduce the peak at the arm cartridge resonant point. And, it's cheaper than a new cartridge.

And good luck from that rolled off old resonator,

Joe Z.
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Postby davestef » 10 Jun 2011 23:42

id say the shure is more in my price range, do you think itll be an improvement over the one im using now?
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Postby Whitneyville » 11 Jun 2011 08:13

YES! http://www.LPGear.com has them for $79.95 (very good value)+S&H. I've done lot's of business with LPG without any problems. The Shure M97xE has built-in damping to help prevent skips. If someday your budget can swing it, when JICO of Japan makes another run of their SAS stylus for the M97x cartridge ($220+ I expect) that will be the best money you can spend, as the SAS stylus is one of less than a half dozen of the most sophisticated stylus shapes made today. It will bring out music you'll never otherwise hear from your records, and it will last FAR longer than other stylii and wear your albums less, due to it's shape. For about $325 you'll have performance equal or better than many $1000+ cartridges/stylii. Some of us can name names from personal ownership....
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