Ed Saunders V15 Iii Stylus

[goatbreath]

I have a Jico SAS and a couple of spares on my Hadcock GH220 /Thorens TD 160 bc mk2 too..Very happy with it it too..

I have a V15 III spare body,,at the minute I am running a Shure M97 xe on My Systemdek IIX with an SME III s arm..Thinking maybe the V 15 III body with Ed Saunders stylus might be better..

Any opinions on this..???

[Alec124c41]

I got a V-15 IV on an old turntable, no stylus. I put an Ed Saunders HE stylus on it, and it sounds very good.
For the relatively modest price, you get a very good working cartridge.
If you want the best, go for a Jico SAS.

Cheers,
Alec

[goatbreath]

I've got the Jico SAS on the Thorens,,I was looking for a less critical option for the Systemdek and spare Shure..That's why the 2 x 7 stylus looks appealing..But the M 97xe has the same stylus profile on so I was wondering if this would just be a sidestep..

No point having both turntables running with the SAS..Unless Jico do a2x7 model that is better than the Saunders.I don't think anyone does nude 2 x 7 Shure replacements..I think even the Shure M97xe is a bonded tip..

So basically wondering about the quality of the Saunders stylus and if the generator for the V15 is much better then the M97..???

Thanks G.B.

[Alec124c41]

Will the M97 stylus fit the V-15? ... No, the box section is too big.
Back to Ed. For $40 you get a good working cartridge, and it would add more than that to the value should you decide to sell it.

Cheers,
Alec

[fscl]

An Ed Saunders is probably my next stylus replacement for a V 15 Type II body that tests good, now that JICO raised their pricing. Check out this link that I came across researching a replacement:

http://www.edsaunders.com/shurereview.htm

The reviewer is a well respected member of Naktalk and posted this video on youtube with his experience with JICO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKOYenX-sYw

This video was also part of this discussion as former VE member Felix initially experienced this phenomona as part of this thread (may be discontinous as OP asked to have all of his posts removed):

http://vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 66e89ba7a3

Anyway, gonna go for the Ed Saunders for the Type II soon, I just hope they don't raise the price as it's a ten spot more than the Type III replacement. Just got my garage sale speakers in operation w/ a couple of tweets

Good luck.

Fred

[dlaloum]

Hi Fred,

you should check into the extensive discussion that was generated by that YouTube vid...

Things are not always what they seem.

The Jico SAS is excellent, but is (it appears) designed for a higher capacitance setup than the original shure styli.

The SAS has a resonance in the HF range between 13k and 16k - which in a high capacitance setup, balances out the frequency droop and leads to relatively flat frequency response to around 16/17k (after which it drops off rapidly)

Using lower capacitance results in a HF rise - caused by the resonance - which raises frequencies from as low as 7/8k


I'll add one proviso to my comments - I am using the M97xE-SAS stylus, and it is possible that Jico tune the resonance differently for differing setups. (which can potentially be achieved by adjusting the cantilever tension wire during manufacture) - it is possible that the V15 versions have a differently tuned resonance.

The Original V15VMR claimed to have the mechanical resonance at 33kHz well outside the audio frequency range - which allowed it to have a very flat F/R 20-20k in the right setup (capacitance/resistance) - based on my current SAS measurements I am not convinced that the SAS can match that.

On the other hand a Soundsmith or Expert Sylus Saphire/Ruby cantilever might.....
Now if only I could get my hands on one of those to measure!

They seemed quite expensive, and still do - but the differential (now that Jico have raised their prices ) is not as bad as it was...

bye for now

David

[flavio81]

The SAS has a resonance in the HF range between 13k and 16k

Source of this claim? I highly doubt the SAS has a resonance below 16KHz.

The Original V15VMR claimed to have the mechanical resonance at 33kHz well outside the audio frequency range

Highly likely. The SAS uses a boron cantilever which is as light and as rigid as the berillyum cantilver on the V15-VMR, so the resonance freq should be similar.

[dlaloum]

Take a look at my 1000e F/R plots in the Near Zero Capacitance thread.

I've measured the 1000e/N97xeSAS and the Me105p/N97xE-SAS combinations - testing them at a range of capacitances and resistances.

The point being to identify the electrical and mechanical behaviour.

Using modeling we get a clear idea of what the electrical behaviour should be (well at least roughly - there are some unexplained small non-linearities that are still being worked on.... )

The difference between the model and the reality is a combination of mechanical resonance and electrical non-linearities.

Most of the data is posted there including the plots.

What these have exposed is the cantilever resonance (very obviously!) - when you deduct the electrical response model from the measured responce some aspects of the delta plot vary with R & C - these are the electrical non linearities that are still to be explained - but the resonant peak does not vary in frequency - and it's magnitude remains similar regardless of the other parameters.

So to answer your question: I know because I measured it.
And yes I found this very disappointing, and totally unexpected - I was expecting to have to get fancy, and run test records at 45 rpm (and EQ for RIAA at 45rpm...) to reach the frequencies where the M-Resonance would be visible.
Unfortunately the m-Resonance became visible in the initial run of cartridge loading tests.....

I also talked to Ed Saunders about this, and he mentioned that his stylus has a slight resonant peak around 11kHz.

A slight resonance at this frequency would compensate for one of the very common MM non linearities - a slight droop at around that frequency - varies a bit by cartridge design, but tends to be around 0.5 to 1db. So Ed's design provides a very neutral response in this very audible range due to this resonance.

The resonance will however also have a phase effect, which is far less obvious, and may influence frequencies beyond the peak itself... I don't have the tools to measure phase - so this aspect is speculation.

I made the assumption with the SAS stylus and was proved wrong - at this point I therefore assume nothing - regardless of the material and design of the cantilever - without better information.

The V15VMR used a tensioned wire at the back of the cantilever to control and tune the resonance - the SAS does the same, but Jico have not stated how the SAS is tuned, nor have they stated whether all SAS styli are tuned the same way, or whether the tuning varies for differing cartridges.

It is of note that the resonance of the N97xE-SAS appears to be quite close to the resonant frequency of the original Sure N97xE Stylus - so they may be engineering the resonance to match the original tone. (anyone want to lend me another SAS of a different variety to test and check?)

I also e-mailed them a question about this, but never received a response. - If as I believe to be the case, it is tunable, you could potentially order a "custom" SAS stylus with the Resonant frequency adjusted to where you want it. (which would allow optimisation of Capacitance/Inductance/Resistance and Resonance as a complete system in a manner previously only possible to cartridge manufacturers).
But like I said - no response.

bye for now

David

[fscl]

Hi Fred,

you should check into the extensive discussion that was generated by that YouTube vid...

Things are not always what they seem.
David

Hi David,

^ I use that a lot myself.....

Please point me in the right direction, I'd love to read through the discussion myself..... I really don't see it on utoob...

Wow, got a lot of catching up to do on the "Zero capacitance" thread, working from pg 30 backwards, amazing stuff.... thanks LD, DL and others.....

From the description, perhaps Kermit? rings a bell, will have to visit his website and poke around.....as he posted on utoob that he found some solution.....

Fred and don't have anything against JICO, however higher pricing has me researching alternatives.....

[dlaloum]

Sorry to be difficult - it was on one of these forums (VE, Audiokarma etc...)

And right now I cannot remember which.

The gent who posted that clip is knowledgeable with cassette decks and reel to reel systems.

But he is aging, has poor eyesight (hearing?) - and appears to have limited experience/knowledge of TT's - some investigation by various people led to severe questioning of the credibility of his posting.

I read that thread some months back - sorry I can't point you the right way.... but searching google for the youtube ref is likely to prove rewarding!

The pricing of the Jico styli, have made OEM AT styli good value.... for Shure fans, there appears no real alternatives - Ed Saunders (probably made by pfanstiehl?) or Jico is it, and I think Jico is probably the better option. Although in value for money terms they may be a perfect match.

There are still bargains to be had in NOS styli/cartridges but you have to spend a lot of time self educating to identify the bargains - and then just as much time hunting....

bye for now

David

[Doug G.]

In my opinion, the Saunders stylus for the V15 Type III is very good. Probably well worth more than its cost.

Ed, if you read this, do NOT take it as an encouragement from me to raise your price.

\:^)

Doug

[desktop]

I am surprised by the low resonant frequency of the V15 MR stylus assembly you tested (although I can accept that figure). The original target resonant frequency for the beryllium MR styli was 45KHz according to notes I made at CES when the V15 VMR came out. I understand that Ed Saunders can obtain nude .2x.7 elliptical styli in Switzerland for high end styli like those for the V15 models. With a boron cantilever the resonant frequency of the cantilever should rise 5KHz over beryllium according to Dynavector blab at CES. Dyna did make some cartridges with everything the same except for aluminum, beryllium and boron cantilevers. I believe VdH did the same, and Garrott Bros as well, for MC rebuilds they offered. In each case the resonant frequency rose 5KHz-10KHz for the boron cantilever vs the beryllium cantilever. This really becomes significant when playing CD4 discs with MC cartridges. The goal is relatively (+/- 2 db) flat frequency response to 50KHz (only down 3 db at 52KHz) for the best playback of CD4 discs using standard demodulators (I use the outboard HK demodulator). So cantilevers are quite critical.

[Ldg]

So cantilevers are quite critical.

Indeed. To aspects of tracking performance too.

But I remain stunned at the notion that a manufacturer, given free rein, would intend a cantilever resonance in the audio band. Eg 11-13kHz. By no means all do, but some apparently. Perhaps it is all a dream..........

Here's a couple examples of what would seem a more conventional approach. Here's a published 'mechanical only' cantilever response (Happ) :



Here's my own transmission line model simulation of cantilever only response :



These are based on common, arbitrary, non exotic, aluminium cantilevers. And, with an exotic material and design, it is possible to extend the response to virtually avoid audioband artifacts all together. If that is the design intention.

It's easy to see from both the above response curves, that each could readily compensate MM electrical response audioband roll off. So one might expect to find the lowest resonance in the mid-20's kHz for MMs, and perhaps above that for MCs.

No doubt a big event in the evolution of cantilever design was CD4. You can see, there is actually a series of cantilever resonances that extends at higher frequencies. Oddly spaced, rather like harmonics of a tubular bell or windchime. Eigenfrequencies. CD4 has to find a phase-flat gap. But modern carts no longer have this constraint, audioband is where it's at. That's why I'm gobsmacked to find cartridges/stylii with cantilever resonances at 11-13kHz. It's simply hard to understand why............it's not exactly difficult to achieve. How on earth can it be a good thing ?!

[dlaloum]

I am surprised by the low resonant frequency of the V15 MR stylus assembly you tested

I must stress that the stylus assembly I tested was a M97xE SAS stylus assembly.

And although very very similar to the Jico VN5MR (V15VMR stylus) - it is not the same.

I will have to purchase one of those in the near future for my V15V - at which time I will measure it's m-resonance.... and post accordingly.

It is very possible that Jico tune each stylus to match the original manufacturer resonance - this ensures that the tonal character of the cartridge is maintained - a true AM replacement...

The SAS clearly has the potential for a far higher resonance. (in it's construction and materials...)

I have now done preliminary measurements of an ATN15ss - and it's mechanical resonance does impinge on the audio band - it appears to peak around 21kHz.

So again although potentially capable of being placed well outside the audio band, it has instead been placed in a location where the resonance can balance the LC droop....

The alternative would have been to design the cartridge with a lower inductance and/or for a lower capacitance, allowing a flat electrical response throughout the Audio range - then the stylus could have been designed with a higher resonant freq. - but it is not the case.....

bye for now

David