comparison of higher end turntables

by **duficity** » 27 Dec 2010 14:27

Ok, I now have an Oracle Delphi Mk III, a VPI HW-19 Mk III using SME 309 and simlar tonearms with Dyna, Benz and Clearaudio cartridges.

I am looking to sell some of these and move up to a couple of better units, used of course. I am looking at Basis Ovation, VPI TNT, Orace MKV or something in that range. Prices seem to be about 3-4k plus tonearm. I might just keep the SME 309s for the new table.

Any thoughts on the differences between my candidates, or suggestions for other used tables to look at. I dont want to spend a lot of time tweaking or tuning the system, but looking for the best sound I can get for that price range.

by **bastlnut** » 27 Dec 2010 15:01

hallo,

that would be easy for me to choose.....
upgrade the Oracle to the highest upgrade point, including a new alu sub-chassis,
and use the extra cash for a better tonearm.
while you are at it, downsize som more and get a better cartridge too.

regards,
bas

by **avole** » 27 Dec 2010 16:20

Sell the lot and put the money towards an Avid or a Linn.

by **dlaloum** » 28 Dec 2010 00:55

get a CD player......

Just Kidding :twisted:

Me if I was going that far up market I would be hunting a used top end linear tracker.... there is (was?) a Goldmund Studietto for sale in melbourne with the Lurne linear arm (Rabco-ish).

There are a few other Audiophile linears in that price range too - some with air bearings etc...

Also I presume that you are setup in the low compliance / high mass MC camp.... you might want to have a listen to the other camp high compliance / low mass (and usually MM/MI). With current cartridge contenders from SoundSmith, CartridgeMan, or classic cartridges from the 80's. The low mass / high compliance sits well with some of the linear trackers..... Requires that you tune the whole system differently though.... less amplification (phono stage), tune impedance in the 47k to 100k range, drop capacitance way down....

In that environment things like the Empire 4000D, AT180ML, Shure V15's, B&O MMC1 are classic players - with the bonus of high quality new styli being produced for some of these classics by people like Jico in Japan. (Soundsmith retips and services the B&O's)

In the last years of substantial corporate investment in Vinyl reproduction (ie: large multinational funding levels rather than boutique businesses...) the High Compliance / Ultra Low Mass combination was king.... perhaps the fad with LowComp/HighMass was just that, and it is time for the pendulum to swing back.... (bell bottoms and platforms anyone?).

In any case there are quite a few of us out there experimenting with this alternative.... and getting great results..... some are comparing the better classic cartridges with TOTL current MC's.... and placing them on a par. (not bad for something costing less than 1/10th the price)

Just a tangential thought on your audiophile journey.

I detoured to MC land starting in the 90's but my Revox Linatrack with 4g ULM tonearm led me to try more suitable high compliance fare.... with excellent results so far.

Doing some experimentation with the HighComp cartridges would potentially free up a bunch of $$$ to spend on the arm/table..... and the styli are replaceable, and in many cases swappable for different profiles, compliances, etc.... (although getting to know this stuff is a little bit of a treasure hunt, as it is not currently fashionable, and most of the information is vintage)

Bye for now

David

by **banerjba** » 28 Dec 2010 01:17

Question is do you like any of them? What kind of sound do you want? I've own quite a few mid grade tables: Linn, Rega, Pro-ject, Thorens. All were different.

You might want to try a new VPI Classic - it seems to be the 900 lb gorilla of the high end market - one Stereophile reviewer sold his Linn for one.

I like the big Rega P9 too but again depends on what kind of sound you want.

by **JoeE SP9** » 28 Dec 2010 02:02

VPI Classic. The set and forget TT. With your budget you can get yourself a new one. The arm that comes with it is superb. Get a nice Soundsmith cart and you'll be good to go.

by **duficity** » 28 Dec 2010 04:27

The VPI Classic is on my shortlist as a set and forget turntable. As to my favorite right now, it would have to be my Oracle Delphi Mk III with SME 345 and Clearaudio Sigma cartridge. Next up would be the S Star Sapphire with vacuum platter, SME 309 and Dynavector 17d2 cartridge.

I do like my Oracle Alexandria, Alphason HR100s and Ortofon 2C Black for a MM set up. It is very smooth but detailed and I can't really say that it gives up anything to the MC based "better" tables.

I do have an ETII mounted on the VPI HW19 but Ive never reallyy spent the time necessary to get it sounding as good as I expect it should sound. I was hoping for a better sound out of it, but got sidetracked. I'd like to have a better feel from others using this arm to see if there are big gains to be had from going to a remote surge tank or higher pressures. I have the pumps to do that, but havent built a large tank to isolate and smooth the air flow. That may be an option on a ridgid table if I go in that direction.

The only hesitation I have with the VPI Classic is the lack of suspension and possible feedback. I can play the Oracles sitting on a subwoofer without a problem, not that I do. Is that hesitation well founded?

As for upgraded cartridges, thats where I have the biggest question. I am considering the Lyra Argo, but I dont know if that is a big enough change to warrant the purchase. I'm not opposed to MM cartridges, and if I went that way I might just use the Alphason or my Grace 704s.

I'm glad there is enough valid experience on this site to give good advice, rather than promote individual opinions and prejudices. We all probably like what we have, and dont have enough opportunity to audition other stuff, so valid criticism and opinion is welcome.

Plus, I need the space. Oh, and I like my Empire too. Something about it that just works for me.

by **bastlnut** » 28 Dec 2010 09:54

hallo,

i don't think the VPI will be any better than the Oracle Delphi IV, or V for that matter.
i don't think it will come close even, but it is easy to use and great value if you like the esthetics.
have you thought of a Maplethorpe? they are seriously good but do need adjusting from time to time.
one of the Voyd 3 motor spinners will also be worth a gander.
how about a Well Tempered? a Roksan TMS? Audiomeca...Lurnè?

in my experience, if the external vibration control, ie: a suspended sub-chassis turntable, is not in the turntable itself,
then more care must be given to placement and what it is placed on.
you may need one or more bases to place the turntable on to achieve the neccessary amount of isolation.
i have a massive turntable with some slightly springy feet.
i have found that a light, ridgid 'rack' or 'lowboard' with the proper resonance control is the best with the wood floors in my Flat....top floor.
i needed to add a sub-shelf to help support the weight and stiffen the construction, and it sounds wonderful.

so why not go really high end? an SME 30 turntable maybe? one of the big Basis turntables maybe?

regards,
bas

by **duficity** » 28 Dec 2010 12:52

I was bidding on an AudioMeca Romance and Romeo, but did not win. I am looking at a Basis Ovation with Wheaton Triplanar arm, but its a little pricey for its age. Why did you choose a massive turnable rather than a suspended one? Was there some difference in the sound that you liked. Most of my experience has been with suspended tables, as you can see above.

by **duficity** » 28 Dec 2010 13:05

I guess I'm looking for my final last best turntable system so I can just play music on it and spend time on playing with my vintage tables instead of having multiple somewhat equal tables that each have some advantage over the other, but none superior enough to make it my final choice.

by **bastlnut** » 28 Dec 2010 13:11

hallo,

why the massive TT that i now have?
it sounds better than anything i have heard until now,
and i have heard a great number of turntable in all price ranges.
which is why i suggested a Maplethorpe, as it is suspended and has many of the benefits of a massive TT.
it also comes with a linear tracking Tonearm.

back to the question.....
i can install more than one tonearm at a time as well.
the bass thunders in the room now, also because of the cartridges i use!
images are so focused you could carve them out of the air.
the backround is not dark, it is room....crystal clear room.
the low level detail and decay of instruments is natural and many heard for the first time.
i can see the back and side walls of a venue that a live recording was made in.

mostly, i have not heard a suspended TT that equals it.
it does take more effort to set up right.
i use really good cartridges too, and unipivot tonearms.
didn't you say you have a Grace 704?
use it or sell it to me!

regards,
bas

by **duficity** » 28 Dec 2010 16:08

Ok Bas, you have my attention. What is this turntable/arm/cartridge you are using? I am all ears!

As to the Grace 704s, I have 3 of them with a few extra headshells. They were my first high end arm, mounted on a Sony 2251 with a GAS Sleeping Beauty cartridge. A very nice combination. I have one of them mounted on a custom plinthed Sony TTS3000 right now.

Got anything you want to trade?

by **cristo** » 28 Dec 2010 18:52

duficity wrote:Ok Bas, you have my attention. What is this turntable/arm/cartridge you are using? I am all ears!

Take a look at his picture gallery - it's there, err... here:

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=14095&user_id=20712

by **bastlnut** » 28 Dec 2010 20:57

yes, that ones mine!
that was a temporary set up because i just had to have it up and running.
since then it has a Stax UA-90n at the back and i can swap out the 9"/10" arm on the left now.
i always have at least one mono cartridge up and running, a Grado Sonata mono, Benz ACE mono, GE VRII.
the Benz and GE mono's on a heavier arm and the Grado mono on the Stax UA90n when my Grado Statement or original Reference is not on it.....or the Van den Hul Grasshopper, Empire MC-5.
on the right side i have a Grace G960 for low compliance cartridges.
usually a Transfiguration Aria (and soon a Phoenix), Jan Allaerts MC1 Boron mkII, Koetsu Urushi Wajima (2x), Benz LP and a custom Gullwing made for me, Shelter 90x.....

now that i am thru with that....
i also have a Thorens TD 124 and TD 2001, PT Export, a smaller Le Tallec too, Lurné Leonard, Michell Gyro/Orbe hybrid.......and others....
Graham 2.2, Lurné unipivot and Romeo, Audiocraft 4000, Breuer 8, SME IV, Luxman TA-1, Mission 774, Signet XK50 and more.....

i may have a few bits you would be interested in, best per PM i think if you want.
anything else you would like to know?
nothing beats a real high end, real audiophile set up.

regards,
bas