'Muddy' sound on vinyl - but only towards the end of LPs

[mjwraw]

I am having a problem with vinyl playback. Towards the end of many of my LPs (i.e. last track or two) the sound gets progressively less well defined and muddy/fuzzy/crackly compared to early on in playback (i.e. first couple of tracks), when it sounds excellent. I'm using a NAD 5120 turntable, with an Audio Technica AT120E stylus which I bought and fitted myself about two years ago. I've spent hours meticulously getting the tracking, alignment, anti-skate, tone arm weight, overhang and so on correct, using protractors and alignment calculators and everything else (!), but it continues to be a problem.

I also meticulously clean each record before play using VinylTek cleaning solution, using a fresh applicator cloth each time and following this up with a second drying/polishing cloth, and I regularly clean the needle using VinylTek stylus cleaning fluid and brush. I thought it might be old vinyl which had previously been damaged, but it also happens on new vinyl. The funny thing is it is definitely worse on some LPs than others (new or old).

Anyway, before I start taking things apart, does anyone have any suggestions as to where I should start looking ?

[1200y3]

Are the records used? Were they used on a turntable previously with poor stylus compliance, a heavy tonearm, and a dull needle?

The best cartridges for worn records and inner groove distortion are Shures. If the record is damaged you will have to try a different stylus size to track untouched groove area.

You can experiment with alignments and weight, as well as VTA. When the arm is perfectly level with the record surface is the stylus :
1 Stylus tip perfectly perpindicular to the record surface?
2 The flat portion (if it has a flat DIRECTLY ABOVE THE STYLUS POINT) perfectly parallel with the record.

If the cartridge is new, it may take about ten plays to start sounding better (break in period).

The best cartridges are for that problem are the fine lines or Micro Lines.

Or you could purchse a $20 Phanstiehl or generic, and macrame about 4 knots of upholstery thread on the cantilever, and line the cartridge and stylus knob with burlap, and have a sound with a level that will sound like you are at the live performance. (Shures are good.) Don't pull the knots too tight, they could squash a cantilever.

If it does it on new records too, check vertical bearing friction (bearings that control vertical movement) by balancing the arm with no weight or antiskating applied, and use a thin paper (some people used ciggartte papers) and make sure there is no friction. Check that the compliance of the stylus is high enough (not sticky or tight) so the stylus is free.

The AT120E has a stylus size of 3x7. That is the most sensitive size to sibilance and tracking noise. Possibly because it is the standard size for most syli, or it generally has the brightest sound. You should possibly change to a 4x7 or 2x7. The A/Ts are well polished, but 3x7s even highly polished show everything.

[lensmanMK2]

i used to have a nad 5120 .. it was the worst TT i have ever come across, the "resonnance damper" on the end of the arm basicly destroys the music, and making sure the damn thing doesnt move improves things a lot whovever the hell thought of an insecure "plug in" toneam should be shot

it was my 2nd TT when i got it for christmas when i was 15, my first was an old sony music centre with a ceramic cart , the sony was so much better. the nad was fisher price build quality at best .. sorry if this all sounds a bit extreme but i hate this TT with a passion

take daveys advice, try it on another TT,or just listen to another TT you'll be amazed!

[1200y3]

If you can, I would suggest trying the record on a few different turntables. Too many people upgrade to expensive cartridges (AT 120 isn't a cheap one) or turntables only to find their whole record collection destroyed by the ceramic cartridges they (or bad styli) used while waiting for the money to buy that Linn. NAD was not the lowest quality, but they did not ever really get a good turntable line off the ground. They made decent electronics during the time the LP was dying. (In fact they made such a beautiful preamp with the electronics thrown onto a quick build cheap chassis and PC board.) They were known for the highest quality at a low cost. (At least my dealer said so when he attempted to sell me one, and he is a vinyl superior.)

[chalmh]

I would think that the stylus is worn out.

Why?

If you analyze the outer tracks compared to the inner track from the frequency bandwidth, it is a fact that the outer are broader in bandwidth.

Even the radial speed of the record is equal for all tracks, the groove length for a specific frequency is much shorter in the inner tracks.

Thus the distortion is affecting higher frequencies and high harmonics while a worn stylus is not able to follow the precise groove surface of that high frequency while the lower frequencies may sound reasonable.

This is not happening in the outer grooves since even the high frequencies are spread on a longer groove area which the stylus is still able to follow.

I would recommend you to replace the stylus first step since a worn stylus will increase the records damage beside the unpleasant sound distortion.

[mjwraw]

Thanks for all the responses guys - predictably I'm not sure where to start now ! Unfortunately I don't know anyone else with a good enough TT nearby to do any swapping tests so that's not really an option, and I'd be a bit surprised and disappointed if it's a worn stylus - as I say the AT120 is only two years old and I probably play on average about 10 LPs a week, and I'm pretty sure I set it up correctly to begin with.

Are there any changes I can make which will give me a clue ? i.e. if I increase/decrease the tracking weight/anti skate/stylus to shell alignment (or other variables I don't know about) will that show up in changes to playback. I've even used a laser spirit level to make sure the TT is absolutely flat !

The other option I've got is that I've got an old Marantz TT130 in the loft which I could resurrect - can anyone suggest a good needle (taking into account 1200y3's suggestions) which would fit that ?

[Thomas_A]

Thanks for all the responses guys - predictably I'm not sure where to start now ! Unfortunately I don't know anyone else with a good enough TT nearby to do any swapping tests so that's not really an option, and I'd be a bit surprised and disappointed if it's a worn stylus - as I say the AT120 is only two years old and I probably play on average about 10 LPs a week, and I'm pretty sure I set it up correctly to begin with.

Are there any changes I can make which will give me a clue ? i.e. if I increase/decrease the tracking weight/anti skate/stylus to shell alignment (or other variables I don't know about) will that show up in changes to playback. I've even used a laser spirit level to make sure the TT is absolutely flat !

The other option I've got is that I've got an old Marantz TT130 in the loft which I could resurrect - can anyone suggest a good needle (taking into account 1200y3's suggestions) which would fit that ?

Cartridges wear rather fast in my opinion. To reduce inner groove distortion, my suggestion is a fine stylus. The JICO SAS is excellent in this respect. Go for that.

T

[lensmanMK2]

try fitting the at120 on the marantz mj.. i dont think marantz made a P mount so you should be able to fit it .. seriously the marantz will blow the nad away

also to check if it "truly" is the stylus, buy a cheapo usb microscope one of the best investments ive made and you can pick old intel ones up from ebay for £10/$10

by the way how are you aligning your carts? just to check

no offence meant thomas.. but dont you think a fine line on this level of decks is a bit of overkill?

[Thomas_A]

no offence meant thomas.. but dont you think a fine line on this level of decks is a bit of overkill?

Distortion at end-of record is very much dependent on the stylus profile. So no, I do not think it is overkill.

[1200y3]

The records when new although don't usually have distortion in the inside grooves. But too many arms have more resistance as it meets the center, and because of groove radius getting tighter it is important that the stylus has absolute freedom from resistance and friction, and and it needs good alignment and proper weight. Otherwise it can scrape from the stylus struggling to stay in the speeding, turning groove, while it may be vibrating erratically. Tonearm leads on cheaper units cause more resistance too. The problem is that it had to be a sharp and hard stylus (high quality) to shave the groove that quickly. The other major danger was a low compliance stylus with too steep of a VTA. Or a bottommed cartridge that pressed on the stylus without a retraction groove.

Any decent turntable should not have a problem in the inside, or the LP wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.

If the distortion is not solvable with correct set-up of an elliptical, your only choice would be a fine line. It will be a long time before I will be able to get one.

Stantons had a great polish and stylus damping, and tracked inner grooves very well. The A/T's compliance system does not allow for any tolerance in set up. It will simply rake the grooves.

[lensmanMK2]

"The A/T's compliance system does not allow for any tolerance in set up. It will simply rake the grooves."

dont understand that to be honest, how can the compliance in the cart give worse result in inner grooves? .. i dont mean any offence with this..so help me understand this yeah?

thom put:

"Distortion at end-of record is very much dependent on the stylus profile. So no, I do not think it is overkill."

wouldnt stylus alignment be something more important?

plus ive had a few linear carts .. right now ive got something similar a shibata (AT12s) ive found the stylii to wear and track no differentley to high quality ellipticals.. in fact my current cart is a shure.. and ive found it to track far better .. to my ears...than a shibata or my old denon 304 on a linn with a rb250 tonearm (stock)

.. but this is all down to the deck you use.. so im no expert, im just typing what ive found

let WW3 commence!

[1200y3]

The stylus of the A/T is firmly attached at it's end. It is very solid.

The Shure is actually resting in a compliance bearing and a suspesion wire ties it back. It actually floats and uses a balance wire. Shure was famous for its tracking ability and they claim they invented "trackability" (along with encapsulation damping, VTA stabilazation, hyper elliptical, micro ridge and many other advancements for non perfect use.) For years many cartridges claimed that "trackability" is only a small part of fidelity. Many of the highest quality cartridges don't track past band 3 of 6 on Shure's test records. (They're designed for Shures possibly?) Shures handled lower quality pressings.

So Shure uses a floating stylus on a pivoted "bearing" as they call it (teeter). A/T uses a single point solid attachment.

Stylus alignment has very little immediate effects, especially with ellipticals and fine lines (we know they sound better).

In an electronic circuit alignment means adjusting each circuit to work with each other. So in HI FI true alignment is adjusting everything else to. (Speakers sometime use a Thiel alignmnet.) So if you took your stereo to a radio man an told him you needed an alignment, he'd porobably set your bass and treble!

[lensmanMK2]

sorry having a bit of problem understanding

my shures compliance comes from a bit of rubber and another bit of wire attached to the end of the tube

my AT's (95E 11e 10 and 12s and 12sa) the wire is attached via a screw in the stylus assembly pressing on a brass tube

"The Shure is actually resting in a compliance bearing and a suspesion wire ties it back. It actually floats and uses a balance wire"

forgive my ignorance.. but.... EH?

"The stylus of the A/T is firmly attached at it's end. It is very solid. "

the design looks exactly the same to me.. if it was solid there would be no compliance?

am i getting this right? i always thought stylus comliance was stylus compliance.. no matter where it is on the record

[1200y3]

The Shure is actually strung and balanced in the center, not glued to the compliance. It is actually free and self centering. It allows for a very compliant system. The compliance is about 3/8/inch away from where the stylus is soldered. This keeps the mass and weight away from the compliance. (Less impact)

Actually the real difference will be that the A/T's compliance is the only thing between the stylus and the tonearm (very direct), therefore it needs a light tonearm with good bearings. The Shure is wired with a bit of shock absorbency allowing for any quality of arm.