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The case against super-high end stylus designs

the thin end of the wedge

Postby desktop » 14 Mar 2008 17:55

It's interesting that so many people are interested in this topic.

What stpa and GurraG have to say is also most interesting. When I was working in the audio business during the introduction of CD4 one of the problems was that while many elliptical styli and even some spherical styli could play back a CD4 record once or twice, they could also ruin these discs too.

CBS labs had once issued a set of photos (this is not the CBS Labs associated with Stereo Review magazine but the lab associated with CBS Records who would actually run tests like: How many times can a stylus made by XXX play back a specific record at 2 grams, and then a similar test at 3 grams etc. They took photos of the grooves quite often every 25th time a record was played and so on. These projects were used to determine the best lubricants to add to vinyl formulations, the best pigments (vinyl is not naturally black), etc.

The most interesting photos to me described the "infinite" amount of force applied to the groove by the spherical and elliptical stylus designs. These designs effectively rest on 2 round contact points about 80%-90% of the way down into the groove. Since the contact points are rounded, the contact area is infinitely small, so no matter what the tracking force, the tracking pressure at the point of contact is effectively infinite. Combine this with the fact that vinyl is relatively hard and somewhat abrasive, and the fact that most metal "mothers" are not fully deburred after plating and you can have some roughness in the groove to start. (Back in-the-day at least 10% re-used vinyl was added back to each batch from crushed "defectives and returns").

After a record has been played a few times with elliptical or spherical shaped styli, all the records micro-photographed showed what looked similar to the wave paterns you see behind slow moving motorboats (nicely spaced light ripples) all along the travel area of the contact points between the stylus tip and the groove.

CBS determined that the burrs in the groove and the ripples 80%-90% of the way down the groove only created high frequency noise. This noise had no audible effect directly because it was in the 30KHz - 90 KHz range (the burrs being random and while the ripples were constant and repetative and dependant on the vinyl formulation), they might interfere with CD4 demodulation. In addition there were some calls to change the stylus tip shapes because some of this high frequency ripple noise excited tip resonances which caused "chatter mistracking" that was really obnoxious in the high frequencies.

The stylus tip design submitted by Shibata/JVC solved many of these problems. The Shibata stylus really is a kind of Line Contact stylus and not really of the type I'm worried about in this thread (nice photos by the way). But the Shibata rode right on the bottom of the groove. It could be made with a high frequency response out to and tip resonance of about 53KHz. The key factor that record people took note of was that this stylus didn't produce the vinyl motorboat ripples on the downside edge of the grooves of stereo-only records. In fact the contact surface area was actually measurable as something other than "infinitely small" for the first time with the Shibata stylus. Other line contact stylus designs came along, and then VdH made their big leap forward. It is the group of post VdH1 styli I am concerned about.

Getting back to the ripples caused by spherical and elliptical styli near the bottom of grooves, there seem to be 2 forces at work. The stylus tip gets warm on the two contact surfaces after only a few seconds playing. At that point you have a hot stylus pressing infinitely hard against vinyl and this can easily create substantial softening (melting is not required, in fact melting is not the mechanism that creates the ripples). After the stylus has passed any groove location the after-effect of the stylus bouncing merrily along in the groove causes the rippling. The groove begins to re-harden very quickly because the vinyl disc is a large heat sink. But there are so many stretching, bouncing, musical, pushing/pulling pressure waves being generated, some driven into the disc and some being generated as the stylus tries to drag the vinyl along with it, that as the soft vinyl hardens again, it reacts in a resonant fashion.

All liquids have excitation resonant frequencies. Input some frequencies into a glass of water and you make a few ripples. Input other frequencies with the same energy level and at resonance, the water wants to jump right out of the glass. The range of frequencies being input into softened vinyl is limited, but each vinyl formulation responds to this energy input at its softest locations by creating raised ripples in the groove. The next time the styli drag over the top of these ripples, the excitations of the energy input increase. The ripples represent stored mechanical energy. Eventually the ripples can have so much stored energy that either cracks form on the vinyl surface, or the stylus can actually skip out of the groove for no "obvious" reason.

The Shibata stylus design can prolong record life 200% in these circumstances. Perhaps other line contact stylus designs can prolong record life as well. The most advanced line contact designs like the VdH1, Gyger1, MR, ML, etc. also distribute the tracking pressures over a really measuable contact surface area, and that seems to be the secret as to why record life is extended by these designs. Sadly I've seen some JVC photos showing that using a stylus design that makes full groove contact, top-to-bottom eventually causes the oputbreak of little blister-like structures up and down the entire groove. These structures exist in the 75KHz-to-125KHz excitation range when the noise they create is laser analyzed, but they do show vinyl deterioration of some kind. We know vinyl is imperfect so we shouldn't be surprised by any of this.

I'm not really concerned that some LC and Shibata styli are mounted on lightweight bushings (bushings can be good heat sinks, but the boundry adhesive layer between the stylus and bushing is an insulator so you win some and you lose some). Mounting an elliptical or spherical stylus on a bushing though seems like asking for damage to vinyl. But I'm still concerned that users don't always realize how much more prone to damage the thin LC surfaces of the most advanced stylus tip designs really are. It is a question of how much trouble we are willing to go through to check our stylus tips every few days vs the amount of slicing damage a VdH1, Gyger1, ML, MR or other simlar stylus can cause.

I've been looking microscopically at the scraped up crud I get when I play some of my records with my VdH1 and ML styli. Some is air pollution, some is dust and some are vinyl bits as these cartridges scrape the tops off of the vinyl ripples, leaving smoothed out pits where the ripples were in the record groove. The pits are harder to even see being black-on-black, and my microscope isn't set up to look at vinyl records, but the stylus tip residue is easily checked. This groove scraping may be good for the sound of the disc if I play that disc with a less "aggressive" LC stylus, and even a spherical or elliptical stylus run through those grooves may sound better because there will be less high frequency chatter at the tip contact area. But it also shows how easily a high end stylus design can rip bits of vinyl off of a groove (even though it could be for-the-good). If that same stylus developed a chip on the edge, who knows how much ripping damage it could do?

The less aggressive LC designs are much less likely to chip, they are less aggressive "scrapers" to start, and they don't need to be checked so often. I have sadly noticed that while most of my Shibata styli have tip resonances way up in the 50KHz region, they also show small dips in the 20KHz response. This makes those cartridges sound less "exciting" compared to my AT 440ML or other. The highs that are recorded alone are super clear and low distortion using Shibata styli playback but they are generally -2db below the level they produce with VdH1, ML or Gyger1 styli (I don't have any more MR styli). So you do give up a bit with Shibata styli. Other LC styli I have give other varied results, unlike the "super-stylus-designs " that I''ve listed before which can sound quite similar to each other. I find Stereohedron styli to be particularly "crisp". But now I'm most concerned about my irreplaceable record collection. So perhaps I'll use my most advanced stylus sdesigns less.
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Postby Brian C. » 14 Mar 2008 19:32

From another angle, John Wharton of Decca presented a paper at the UK AES in October 1965 presenting these findings...

Elliptical points give higher measured distortion than conventional styli. An argument is put forward that this is largely due to a greater preponderance of stylus mass distortion over tracing distortion. It is claimed this theory can explain the occurrence of -modulation noise- on elliptical styli. - Synopsis of Stylus Mass and Elliptical Points

Ref. Wharton's 1965 Paper (Unfortunately $20 for non-AES members to download, $5 for members)

Have there been any similar comparative distortion studies published involving other stylus shapes?

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Postby desktop » 14 Mar 2008 21:24

I think one of the Ortofon engineers presented a paper at one of the European chapters discussing how stylus shapes like the Replicant series (like MR, ML Stereohedron, VdH1, Gyger1, Microtracer etc.) have inherently the lowest possible tracing distortion. I'm familiar with this Decca paper justifying the use of Spherical cartridge styli. But when you actually listen to a Decca Gold IV vs the TOL Grey Export (or Plum) the spherical styli have so much "crunching" noise in the highs the Gold seems like bliss clarity-wise.

On the other hand I have a really nice Concord MC 100 with a .4 mil spherical stylus and even though it might not have a long life, it sounds great. I don't use it on old records with trashed up grooves (see my previous post), but on nice new records it sounds as good as it gets and once in a while I get mono records from the 50s and 60s still new in the packaging and the .4 mil spherical is outstanding.

The problem is that since it's a spherical shape it might still be leaving little ripple tracks in the groove. I hope not.
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references

Postby desktop » 14 Mar 2008 22:02

I guess someone calculated that based on their photos, a 1.0 mil spherical stylus in a 90 degree groove causes distortions IN the vinyl starting at .64 grams, and these softened ripples then come to the surface afterwards.

AES E-Library: The Limiting Tracking Weight of Gramophone Pickups for Negligible Groove Damage by Barlow, D. A.
The Limiting Tracking Weight of Gramophone Pickups for Negligible Groove Damage
JAES Volume 6 Issue 4 pp. 216-219; October 1958
It has been observed that when spherical styli are dragged over flat vinyl surfaces, scratches are produced under loads considerably exceeding the elastic limit as calculated from theory. The author, in this paper, describes the results of his experiments which bear out his argument that under load the point of yield begins below the surface; and reaches the surface, producing visible tracks, only after the calculated yield load is exceeded. This critical value of load for styli of various radii has been measured and found to be equivalent to, for a 1-mil stylus, 0.64 gm. for a 90° record groove. No size or skin effect was found with the vinyl material tested.
Author: Barlow, D. A.
Affiliation: Aluminium Laboratories, Ltd., Banbury, Oxon., England

Some of these photos are very interesting


http://www.micrographia.com/projec/proj ... ny0200.htm

Applied Microscopy.
The Microscopy of Vinyl Recordings.
A General Introduction.

The Vinyl Record.

This article is in five parts:

Page 1. Page 2. Page 3. Page 4. Page 5.

Introduction.
Microscopy: The appearance of the grooves.
Contaminations causing noise; old forms of stylus.
Record wear and the elliptical stylus.
Stylus tracking and test records.


ANOTHER AES PAPER from 1978

AES E-Library: Groove Deformation and Distortion in Recordings by Barlow, D. A.; Garside, G. R.
Groove Deformation and Distortion in Recordings
JAES Volume 26 Issue 7/8 pp. 498-510; August 1978
The elastic and plastic deformation of vinyl record compound under indenters of various profiles has been studied in large-scale tests. Curves of total depth of penetration versus load have been used to calculate the net distortion on record playback. In general, in the lower treble, net distortion is less, and in the upper treble, net distortion is greater than tracing distortion alone. This is important for attempts to reduce tracing distortion by inverse predistortion of the recorded signal. Nylon was also studied as a material with contrasting mechanical properties to vinyl. Further light has been shed on the nature of translation loss.
Authors: Barlow, D. A.; Garside, G. R.

On the Steve Hoffman forum PUBLIUS says this

A few references on groove melting and deformation...

"Role of Scanning Electron Microscope in Disc Recording." George Alexandrovich. AES Preprint 1274, 58th Convention.
Among other subjects we investigated was the method of playing records wet. By applying a thin film of water as the record was rotating and playing the groove with an ordinary stylus, it produced unexpected increase in vinyl deterioration in the area where the stylus was touching the groove. Our SEM pictures unveiled extraordinary ripping of the vinyl surface which I can explain only by the fact that the vinyl is not allowed to liquify momentarily under the pressure of a fast moving stylus because of the cooling action of water in the groove. This phenomenon, I believe, is identical to ice skating where one does not skate on ice but actually on a film of water which comes from the ice being momentarily melted under the pressure of the thin metal blade. If ice is too cold, one cannot skate. Evidence of the fact that vinyl melts can be found in pictures taken of record grooves played at different temperatures.
KlausR linked (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?for ... l&n=441735)to a section from "Handbook for Sound Engineers" on AA. Note that Alexandrovich is also responsible for this quote.
because of the small area of contact that exists between the stylus tip and the groove, the pressure against the groove wall can rise up to many thousands of pounds per square inch. For instance, if the wall receives 0.7 g of force applied through the contact area equal to 2 ten millionths of an inch, the pressure is 7726 lb/squ.inch. It has been experimentally shown that with such high pressures and forces of friction between stylus and the vinyl, that the outer skin layer of the record material melts as the tip slides over the plastic and then refreezes almost as fast as it melted. It has been suggested that since the melting temperature of vinyl is about 480 °F that the same temperature exists in the contact area. If the record material is metal, which happens when metal mothers are played, then the pressure increases to 20,000 to 30,000 lb/squ.inch, and the temperature can reach 2000°F because there is no plastic deformation of the groove wall. This explains why styli made of diamond, which is nothing more than carbon, literally burn up or wear out in a couple of hours when they are used to play metal mothers. If liquids were used to cool the contact area, then the diamond wear diminishes drastically, but the metal surface of the record is burnished. If the liquid is applied to the vinyl surface, then the temperature of the plastic surface cannot reach increase and melt; therefore, the scouring of the groove wall can be observed, as shown in Fig. 25-114.

There is some other anecdotal evidence I haven't been able to track down. Apparantly an old issue of The Audio Critic had a guy show examples of melting too. I haven't even tried looking through Audio yet.

On the other hand, Friedrich Loescher of Lenco was apparantly adamant (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?for ... g&session=)that vinyl melting did not exist. It's worth noting that he was also a staunch supporter of wet playback, and had the electron microscope wear pictures (and the subjective evaluations) to prove it. (see "Long-Term Durability of Pickup Diamonds and Records", JAES v22 #10 p800 (Dec 1974).) In comparison, the first Alexandrovich article I linked above (the preprint) shows pictures of the vinyl being physically ripped apart when played back wet. So this could be an example of two experts with diametrically opposed opinions, except that Alexandrovich's opinion was used in at least one published book (the handbook), and his research was done several years after Loescher's...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the CBS discussion
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/b ... -7508b.pdf
Theory of Groove Deformation in Phonograph Records: Another from CBS, this one modern
theory and a comparison with experiment, emphasizing the interaction between stylus tip and
vinyl surface. (pp. 1332-1340)

Good Reading
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Postby bauzace50 » 14 Mar 2008 23:10

desktop,
Fabulous information! Thanks. Makes one think of the bumblebee, which is proven unable to fly...or so they say.
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Postby Brian C. » 15 Mar 2008 08:22

bauzace50 wrote:desktop,
Fabulous information! Thanks. Makes one think of the bumblebee, which is proven unable to fly...or so they say.
bauzace50


:wink:


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Postby michaelwnz » 15 Mar 2008 12:04

bauzace50 wrote:desktop,
Fabulous information! Thanks. Makes one think of the bumblebee, which is proven unable to fly...or so they say.
bauzace50


A myth perpetuated by those seeking to discredit science.

:wink:

http://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=41

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/200 ... thtrek.asp
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Postby desktop » 16 Mar 2008 01:21

Being mostly retired from audio (although I'll be making a visit to CES this January again), I only saw the photos about 2 1/2 years ago. I believe the Ortofon Replicant was the stylus being used because it had the absolute maximum top-to-bottom stylus contact. The stylus supposedly looked like new after 1500 hours playing the same side of a randomly staggered swept tone test disc 10 times per day (once per hour). The JVC Cutting Lab facilities are about the best I've ever run into (I don't remember if this test disc was cut at half speed or not).

The testing was done to test vinyl formulations. For all I remember now, the photos I saw might have been showing the "losing" formulations but I think I saw various failure artifacts on all the photos. I only bring this up to suggest that vinyl wears out ("The master of the obvious strikes", ta dahhhhh). So no matter what we do, pressing something very hard like a diamond, against something less hard like vinyl, will cause some sort of damage eventually.

One of the earlier comments about a MicroRidge stylus being able to sound excellent even with a chip on the edge gave me the shivers. If so this means it could be slicing up my vinyl and I wouldn't even know it. Ouch. I tended to think a cip would accumulate scooped up vinyl and start sounding bad because of more tip mass and asymmetrical unbalancing.

Another comment about how even the highest end designs I mentioned make contact with the grooves in different locations is also true. Most of the Stereohedron, MR, ML, Gyger, VdH and Microtracer styli ride nearer the top of the groove. I guess if you were going to slice off vinyl from the top of the groove where the groove "turned" to the "flat" top, it might be considered less destructive than if it took a chunk right out of the side wall of the groove. But I worry anyway that a chip out of the thin edge of these styli might cause the stylus to "drop down" more into the groove can that could cause damage that all the styli designs mentioned above might "play" at later times.

I think this is one of the issues supposedly addressed by the Replicants. The theory being that if the stylus makes absolute full contact top-to-bottom with the groove, it means that a chip on one edge will actually be a "negative space " (I believe this is the term the Ortofon guy used, or possibly edge-void, I'm not sure). This means that the chip would be "away" from the vinyl at that point, not contacting the vinyl. Sadly I find that Replicant styli reproduce every single defect in a record (unlike many other high end stylus designs) and I have always had to play a normally-used disc 4 or 5 times using the stylus to clean the grooves before I can listen to it regularly. Ortofon makes great Fine Line, Line Contact and Ortoline styli, which is why I preferred the Rohmann.

The wear issue with Shibatas has always been known because they track at the bottom of the groove and so they encounter the most grit and their design forces more of this grit into high pressure contact with the thinnest area of the tip. I have a bunch of Shibata stylus tips (all nude) now and I'll be checking them more often, but with so many, I may not wear them out fast. I have an AT 14 and AT15 with nude Shibata tips recently installed, and a new 12s stylus (on a bushing), I also have an Ortofon MC 20 with a new Shibata tip, and a Denon DL 300. I may even have more but I don't remember at the moment since my computer is away from my listening rooms (too noisy).

I enjoyed looking at the groove photos in one of the links I posted above, but when I did searches I came across quite a few archivists discussing playing groove damaged records "wet". I'll have to check VE here to see if there are threads about this, but I have a bunch of studio tape recorders and would like to save a few vinyl discs to tape except the noise is really bad on some of these and so perhaps this will help. From what I read, choosing the exact right stylus tip design to track the highs but not the damage was the key.

I'm still concerned that the best stylus designs for tracking the highs (excepting the Ortofon Replicants which have other problems) may get edge chips too easily, and these chips may be damaging my records so I'll need to check those styli more often under strong magnification. It was off but there were many photos of stylus tips I've seen recently (some here) and I still don't know if I was able to clearly see edge chips. I do know I'll be listening more with Hyperelliptical, Super-elliptical, Vital, Shibata, Fine Line, Line Contact, Ortoline and other slightly thicker edged line contact stylus designs, because I know they are less prone to chip. I guess that was my biggest concern in this thread.
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Postby bronilover » 31 Mar 2010 23:59

desktop, this is a most interesting thread. Thank you
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Postby Whitneyville » 01 Apr 2010 03:49

Having worked for an oil company for 14 years gives me a bit of and "edge" when it comes to "vinyl" fomulas. The black color goes back to when they found Edison discs and Victrola discs lasted longer when carbon black was added to shellac. Same thing with whatever exact formulation LP's are made of. We all know some "vinyls" are quieter and wear better than others. Japanese, high-quality German, and Mobile Feidlity Sound Labs keep their "formulas" like a CIA secret.
The grade of a diamond varies wildly, from a Mohs hardness of less than 8 to 10. Gemstones are usually not as hard as "industrial" diamonds, and now they can produce synthetic diamonds with a Mohs hardness of 9.9.(Yeah, I've been watching the educational TV channel on diamonds, especially the new pink and red ones from Canada, which are quite soft, but carat for carat, have finally surpassed pigeon-blood rubies in value.) Industrial diamonds usually aren't "pretty", but they use diffraction X-Rays to determine the "grain" to cut them with so they can withstand extream heat and pressure. If you've even seen a Reed Rotary Rock diamond drilling bit, and seen at a rig-floor them putting 200,000 PSI on the bit with lots of cooling "mud" flow, it'll impress you. When the "tool pusher" tells you how much the bit costs, your jaw hits the ground, and the on-site geoligist can tell you how many hours the bit will last in the hard rock formation. Hmmm, sounds a darn lot like our stylii doesn't it? Or ask your dentist about his "burrs". It's really amazing, with all the steps involved in making them, that LP's sound as good as they do, and last as long as they do. The person who invents the "perfect" stylus design, will get rich quickly, because every design has it's advantages and drawbacks, so far, and frankly, production costs are very high when working on diamonds. Very high powered lasers are beginning to be used to cut and polish diamonds, but this process is far more exspensive than "lap-wheels", for now.
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Postby fantasia » 01 Apr 2010 13:44

HI and all i can say it a lot to think about but, iam not surprised that i like the sound of my two SHIBATA tiped carts the AT311E/12S and the EXCEL es70x4
both bonded, but glorious sounding and they do throw a lot of crude up from an un clean Lp or one you thought as clean!!!!!!!

They also expose new unworn fresh vinyl to hear on old Second hand Lps always a plus!!!!
its a balancing act!!!!!


Fantasia :) :) :) :) :)
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Postby fantasia » 02 Apr 2010 20:46

HI,
IT is hard to know what quite to do?????? given some of the cmments i might get carts re tipped with a nude Shibata!!!!!!!

I have been listening to my Excel ES&)x4 with its bonded shibata, currently a late1950s Lp of beecham and the royal PHIL playing Scheherazade, apart from the clicks and pops which you might expect in a 50+year old Lp the sound late at night through headphones is amazing!!!!!!!!

I can only suspect that, this Lp was pretty much played with only conical stylii!!!
Lets not kid ourselves HERE only we die hards go to the trouble of elliptical at the least for play back of vinyl.

THis EXCEL was a very common cart!!!!! i just kick myself, back in the 1970s seeing the cart but in its record changer in carnation the EXCEL ES70S with
a .7mil conical and tough for $5 each, i pulled this off an old changer, replaced
the S stylus with the Shibata X4 and it does sing transformed.

The discussion above re wear factors with exotic stylii raises the question to a greater or lesser extent our little addiction, is inherently going to produce
wear at the stylus/groove interface!!!!!!!
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

WE ultimately can only do two things keep our Vinyl very clean, with whatever method we use; clean the stylus also.

I have done this for years!!!!

My only, proof of how it has helped was at College a mate had been a hi-fi dealer owned some yummy mono block luxmans and the matching pre-amp

His TT was the "pink triangle" with a mission arm and a heavily Garrott reworked by the original brothers!!! Boron cantilever Micro scanner stylus; SUPEX 900 MC cartridge.

This cartridge/TT package extracted truely errie levels of detail from an LP!!!!!
i heard micro details from, my LPs which i bought over for late night Lp soirees, which i though couldn't be there but was. My Lps played quite well on his system, as i had always kept my Vinyl clean, a clean stylus and stylii at low wear.

This process is even more important than ever as vinyl is not made on the scale it once was and some our treasured Discs won't ever be "RE-PRESSED"
Although i hope some of us at times would get some things re pressed as a Forum?????? or just someone must be doing this somewhere in the world???

Regards
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Postby Klaus R. » 04 Apr 2010 10:29

Brian C. wrote:From another angle, John Wharton of Decca presented a paper at the UK AES in October 1965 presenting these findings...


Walton measured

I. 5 micron elliptical vs 10 micron spherical (effective styus mass < 0.5 mg)
II. 7.6 micron elliptical vs 18 micron spherical (effective styus mass 1.2 mg)

III. 15 micron spherical vs 7.6 micron spherical (effective styus mass 0.6 mg)

for different frequencies and at 3 different record radii.

In case I. the elliptical was always better than the spherical.

In case II., at all radii the elliptical was better and worse, depending on frequency.

In case III., the small stylus was always better than the large one.

He further measured 5 cartridges having 0.9 mg effective stylus mass and found that with 12.7 and 7.6 micron they showed neither increase nor decrease in distortion. "All pickups with stylus masses over 1 mg, however, showed some distortion increase with elliptical styli. Pickups that were measured with stylus radii above 15 microns, however, again showed an increase in distortion with such large radii."

Walton concludes: "It seems, therefore, that there is an optimum relation between stylus radius and stylus mass".

and

"The fitting of an elliptical stylus to most pickups will result, at present, in more distortion, not less. Only those pickups with a measured effective sylus mass in the region well below 1`mg can benefit by a 7.6 micron minor radius, and the present radius of 12.7 micron seems best suited to the majority of good pickups with their stylus masses in the 1-2 mg region".

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Postby flavio81 » 05 Apr 2010 16:23

Klaus R. wrote:"The fitting of an elliptical stylus to most pickups will result, at present, in more distortion, not less.


1965.

Klaus, you will love to read this thread on advanced stylus shapes, stylus tip radius and mass versus distortion and frequency response:

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22894
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