'Budget' MC's ??

[freefallrob]

Hello all, i'm looking for opinions or personal experiences of budget MC's (Tango, Samba etc.) verses budget MM (2M RED, BLUE) etc.

I'm currently running an Ortofon 2M RED which i'm happy with, I was thinking in a while I may upgrade to the BLUE stylus around 80 quid. BUT, i've never tried an MC cartridge and I keep looking at the new Ortofon range (which renewed my interest).
I looked at the Denon DL110 (good value) but I thought if i'm having an MC I may as well have a lowish output one to get the most benefit right?

I can only really blow around 150 quid max on one, question is are they worth it, will I get better sound or different sound, do you know where i'm coming from ?

Many thanks

P.S System is SL1200mk2 c/w RB300, late Cyrus 1 amp currently using on board MM/MC stage (which isn't bad actually).

[sreten]

Hi,

The Cyrus 1 phono stage is not bad, based around a NE5532/4's I recall.
Some would argue you could upgrade the op-amps ...... .

However the MC setting is not exactly ideal (search) :



The MC setting increases the 1st stage by ~ x10 = 20dB.
This is fine except for the noise performance, which v good MM, mundane
MC, the Cyrus 2 has extra MC bits (LM394) for ~ 10dB lower MC noise.

(An option is changing the MC setting to only a little more gain.)

In the UK you can buy a Red and DL110 for £60 delivered. Which is a joke.
Overpriced budget bushed tip MM vs high quality nude tip MC, no contest ...

The Blue nude tip will improve the Red, do not get me wrong I liked
the Red's predeccessor the 510 when it was a true budget entry point.

The DL110 is outstanding value for what you get. It should better the
Red in every respect, whilst you could argue DL110 vs the Blue is
more what flavour ice-cream do you you prefer, MM or MC.

Your other options IMO are to import :

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchan ... ry_Code=A3

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT-F ... m153.l1262

The latter IMO being your best medium output MC entry point.

/sreten.

[Werner]

(An option is changing the MC setting to only a little more gain.)

Er, no. That won't help SNR a bit since both the input signal and the
input stage's equivalent input noise remain the same.

Not wanting to steal this thread, but methinks a couple of simple hacks can improve the Cyrus One in MC mode:

1) replace or bridge R17 with something like 10 to 22 Ohms. The thermal noise of that 470 Ohms is huge!!! If you stick to MC, solder the proper loading resistor on top of R19.

2) leave the NE5534 in there. Contrary to popular belief it really isn't that bad. If you really want to replace, think OPA227 or 228, and if funds allow, LT1028.

3) replace C17 (1u) with the best-sounding cap you can fit in there. Probably increase value to 1.5u or 2.2u.

4) replace OA5 with something like the OPA2134, a FET opamp with low offset, allowing DC-coupling henceforth (really!)

5) bridge C23 and even C25 (but measure offset before you do so)(*)

6) remove C27

7) solder a 100nF ceramic cap between the V++ and V-- supply of each opamp

have a look at the power supply:



Replace C71 and C72 with 100-220uF quality elcaps with a fairly *high* ESR, such as Rubycon YXF or ZL.

Replace C69 and C70 with the largest-value low-ESR caps you can fit (100uF or so) and/or replace R115 and R116 with a 12V zener.

This reduces the output noise of the 317/337 and improves their stability.

Hope this helps...


(* Assuming that this doesn't throw off the low-end section of the RIAA too much ... have to simulate ...)

[freefallrob]

oooh eck! circuit diagrams and stuff...... my eyes just glazed over

Well I understood some of it thanks chaps, seems the MC stage is a little noisy if I understand you both right. I haven't modded a circuit before so for the moment i'll steer clear of that, but cheers.

I think it looks like my best bet for max return for least outlay is either a BLUE stylus or a DL110... I know I like the BLUE stylus as i've heard one against a RED in a system I know, the BLUE stylus it is me thinks . I'm not rich enough to experiment and get it wrong at the moment.

Thanks for the replies

[Werner]

seems the MC stage is a little noisy if I understand you both right.

It isn't too bad. I used a Cyrus One for years with DL-301 and OC9 cartridges. Modern MCs with 0.5mV output or even more will fare even better.

[freefallrob]

seems the MC stage is a little noisy if I understand you both right.

It isn't too bad. I used a Cyrus One for years with DL-301 and OC9 cartridges. Modern MCs with 0.5mV output or even more will fare even better.

Thanks, looks like the entry level Ortofon Tango ( Denon 103 price competitor ) may be worth having a go at then, it puts out 0.5mv apparently......

[sreten]

(An option is changing the MC setting to only a little more gain.)

Er, no. That won't help SNR a bit since both the input signal
and the input stage's equivalent input noise remain the same.

Hmmm....

You sure about that .....

It will help somewhat assuming 150R is significant to the - input noise.
A high output MC will significantly reduce the +input source impedance.
(And your right the 470R (fine for MM) limits this improvement).

Anyway the point was for a e.g. DL110 you can set optimum lower gain.


/sreten.

[sreten]

Hi,

I think a "normal" MC will be fine, just pointed out there is a minor
difference between the MC setting and ideal, which slightly reduces
the advantages of medium output over high output.

The AT-F3mkII would be my medium output choice.

I'd take the Denon DL110 over the Tango any day of the week.

/sreten.

[freefallrob]

Hi,

I think a "normal" MC will be fine, just pointed out there is a minor
difference between the MC setting and ideal, which slightly reduces
the advantages of medium output over high output.

The AT-F3mkII would be my medium output choice.

I'd take the Denon DL110 over the Tango any day of the week.

/sreten.

Noted ! The AT-F3mkII looks interesting also.

[analogous]

Sorry, but the Cyrus phono stage is not good. There are 3 caps in directly in the current signal path, C17, C23 and C25.

No caps should be used between opamps. The one on the output, C25, is usually found on most preamps. It is optional. If there is no problem with DC, you can drop it.

This is not a good beginner's phono stage. It's too complex.

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Chip/CMoy-Grado-RA1-Headphone-Amp/

This Grado headphone amp can easily be made into a MM phono preamp. It will make just as good phono stage as headphone amp.

The 8.2k resistor needs to be changed to 1M and the 2k resistor to 1k.

Paralleled with the 1M resistor you need a 2200pF capacitor and a 147k resistor in series with the cap. Finally, a 750pF cap in parallel with those.

The volume control and .47uF cap should be dropped and the 100k resistor changed to 47k.

Total gain of this preamp is 40db.

Two 9V batteries will easily last 12h.

Unfortunately, you cannot upload images.

[freefallrob]

analogous, thanks for the reply. Special thanks for the website link, I like the look of some of the speaker projects on there .

As for modding/building phonostages, that's not really something i'm looking to do at the moment, but cheers.

[sreten]

Sorry, but the Cyrus phono stage is not good.
There are 3 caps in directly in the current signal path, C17, C23 and C25.

Hi, it must be awful then, what a faux pas by the designer, /sreten.

[Arkivor]

I count 8 capacitors in the signal path.

But then, what do I know ...

[sreten]

I count 8 capacitors in the signal path.

But then, what do I know ...

Hi,

Signal path means the audio signal has to pass through it,
e.g. the input capacitors C11,C13 are not in the signal path.

There are 3 coupling and 2 feedback capacitors in the path.

/sreten.