Stylus or cart, what's more important?

[rodney7]

I have a terrific cartridge (well, a couple of them, actually). But someone pointed out that the Jico N97xE SAS stylus will fit on my Shure M104E cart. The specs on the M104E are nowhere near as good as those of my other carts. Will the SAS stylus make such a difference that I might actually prefer it to the cartridges with better separation and frequency response (Pickering 3000 & AT331LP), or should I not bother, since I am happy with what I have?

[Bran Kulez]

That's a very good question. I guess I would say stylus because you can improve a cheap cartridge with a better stylus but you can't improve a cheap stylus with a better cartridge.

I have several cheap after-market styli for my Shure V15 type 3 and for the most part they degrade the cartridges performance.

I also have a Jico VN35 for the V15 type 3 and it sounds like a different cartridge, not better or worse, just different. For some recordings, I prefer it's sound over the original Shure VN35E.

[lini]

I'd second that the needle is more important, unless the body was really badly designed. And one has to be aware of limitations, mainly regarding generator inductance - 'cause a high to very high inductance body will never allow for a very extended response in the highs, even if combined with a high class needle.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[AK]

I also have a Jico VN35 for the V15 type 3 and it sounds like a different cartridge, not better or worse, just different. For some recordings, I prefer it's sound over the original Shure VN35E.

The V15 III and it's original SuperTrackPlus stylus are a match - they're engineered so they compensate each other's electrical and mechanical issues for a certain sound. Other cartridges are engineered similarly. Fitting an aftermarket stylus is a shot in the dark as you never know if it's a match - it may sound good, it will always be different and probably never quite "right"/"as intended".

[pchap]

If I remember correctly Nagaokas MP11 with a Boron cantilever was the top of the MP11 design, which along with other manufacturers suggests that the cantilever material is paramount.
If stylus profiles are the biggest leap forwards, what did Denon with the DL103 and Decca with the London Blue, get right to get such stunning sound from a spherical stylus ?
Jan Allaerts has made a stunning leap forward with his hand wound cartridges, which suggests that the stylus profile is less important than the cartridge itself.
Is the LP12/Ittok/AT95E better than the Axis/LVX/Asak, which takes us into a different area which would include the phono stage as well.
Do you purchase a moving coil which has an inherent life span of the stylus/cantilever/ suspension, rather than being able to change just the stylus assembly of a moving magnet.
What about the difference between the Linn K5/9/18 which upgraded almost everything in each model. Obviously the K18 with a K5 stylus is better than a whole K5 or an AT95E, but how much ancillary equipment do you need to hear that to its full potential, rather than spending the money on a different cartridge.

[steve195527]

from tracking/lack of record wear etc point of view the stylus assembly is most important but it has to be attached to a cartridge that does it justice,they have got to work as a team not two individuals

[Ldg]

If stylus profiles are the biggest leap forwards, what did Denon with the DL103 and Decca with the London Blue, get right to get such stunning sound from a spherical stylus ?

And that is the question which demands to be properly answered. The pursuit of which is all revealing and busts many myths along the journey.

[Thomas_A]

My take is that the quality of diamond, precision in the stylus geometry, alignment and quality of polish makes a big difference. I do not have a lot of samples to compare, but the measurements that I collected from the Shure V15VxMR and ShureVx/JICO SAS showed quite some differences:

lower noise and distortion of JICO SAS
much better channel separation and channel balance of the JICO SAS

My take of the reason to these changes is the precision of the stylus shape and alignment in the cantilever. The original was not bad, but there was visible asymmetry of the stylus tip and a somewhat imperfect alignment of the stylus in the cantilever. Probably the quality of polish differed between them as well. With the JICO, I could see a perfect geometry and alignment. Perhaps I was lucky with the sample, but for this case, the SAS was evidently much better than the original.

Frequency response was a bit different with higher level in the 8-20 kHz region of the JICO-SAS, which in the case of the V15Vx was not a bad thing. It makes it possible use a different load to get at perfect flat response.

[Ldg]

My take is that the quality of diamond, precision in the stylus geometry, alignment and quality of polish makes a big difference. I do not have a lot of samples to compare, but the measurements that I collected from the Shure V15VxMR and ShureVx/JICO SAS showed quite some differences:

lower noise and distortion of JICO SAS
much better channel separation and channel balance of the JICO SAS

My take of the reason to these changes is the precision of the stylus shape and alignment in the cantilever. The original was not bad, but there was visible asymmetry of the stylus tip and a somewhat imperfect alignment of the stylus in the cantilever. Probably the quality of polish differed between them as well. With the JICO, I could see a perfect geometry and alignment. Perhaps I was lucky with the sample, but for this case, the SAS was evidently much better than the original.

Frequency response was a bit different with higher level in the 8-20 kHz region of the JICO-SAS, which in the case of the V15Vx was not a bad thing. It makes it possible use a different load to get at perfect flat response.

Hi Thomas_A. Yes, I am increasingly convinced these are the factors of significance. The trump suit.

[avole]

So an AT95E with a Jico SAS will sound as good as a Benz Micro Glider, will it?

[Hanuman]

If stylus profiles are the biggest leap forwards, what did Denon with the DL103 and Decca with the London Blue, get right to get such stunning sound from a spherical stylus ?

And that is the question which demands to be properly answered. The pursuit of which is all revealing and busts many myths along the journey.

Those two specimens don't respectively enjoy universal acclaim. The '103, for example, has a loyal fan-base which seems at least partly offset by a countering faction that either detests it at worst, or feels it is overrated at best.

[Ldg]

Not much in this pastime achieves universal aclaim, but the point here is that good quality sphericals can perform very well indeed, and way beyond their modern reputation. This illustrates the fundamental performance attainable from a good quality spherical stylus. Those carts are iconoclastic then as to what factors can really influence fundamental stylus performance.

Of course, if one has the same factors applied to alternate profile styli, there may well then be further advantages available, albeit perhaps relatively small in real terms. But in the absence of the same quality factors, I venture there's a far weaker performance trend following profile alone, and this is one reason why these quality sphericals can stand out. The trump suit.

[Ldg]

So an AT95E with a Jico SAS will sound as good as a Benz Micro Glider, will it?

I wonder. If investment in setup optimisation is matched. And the electrical interfaces can be equivalently matched.......

Brianev posted this recently on another thread:

Hi, I have a couple Benz carts, they can be picky to set up. Have you checked that the VTA is correct? This can be checked using a mirror, also Check the anti skate and HTA. The Benz can deliver quite stunning play back, but does need to be right on the money to work properly. A good magnifying glass can help to check some of the settings, or, as I do, a USB microscope.

To me, this suggests stylus-groove tribology might be very sensitive to exact stylus angle presentation on the Benz. And this could be a big clue as to a how some of those sonic benefits might be achieved, along similar lines which seems naturally present in the Jico SAS, ultimately equating with low stylus-groove friction as Thomas_A has already measured for at least one Jico/SAS example.

So, I really wonder.