SME 3009 imp vs Ittok LV2

[brighton123]

Hi all I havn't posted on here for a while but still check in quite a bit, I just bought an LP12 with ittok and AT oc9 circa 1982 for comparitively little money and am playing it with rudimentry set up as I type. My other deck is an Ariston RD11 circa 73 with SME 3009/Shure v15 III Jico SAS, FD200/ Bronze bearing ADC headshell/ I was using this with The mose/Hercules power supply which I have for the moment moved over to the LP12, Well first impressions of the LP12 ittok were good but after a few hours it just dosnt grab me like the SME does, It does however have better seperation, bass and timing

The Ariston/SME can give you the pleasure of those licks of the cymbals and some unpredictability that only a good vinyl setup can give you but the LP12 Ittok/
OC9 is surprisingly accurate and dare I say it CD like (There I said it) It definately tracks better and has less audible surface noise. and is by no means unpleasent its just that there is no magic there or not to my ears tonight anyway.

I am wondering if anyone has experience of a silver wired ittok. Can it lift the top end sufficiently to warrant the spend, Im just curious what your opinions are

I think my two decks themselves are pretty similar in design and build and I have used the same PS and motor so the test is a fair one I feel. two very different beasts I suppose

cheers

[KentT]

I prefer SME 3009 II Improved to Ittok. I prefer the headshell version to the fixed variant.

[audioorigami]

silver rewire will give you cleaner leaner bass with a little extra definition
and the mid and top end will be clearer and cleaner
compared to the original copper wire

[steve195527]

Hi all I havn't posted on here for a while but still check in quite a bit, I just bought an LP12 with ittok and AT oc9 circa 1982 for comparitively little money and am playing it with rudimentry set up as I type. My other deck is an Ariston RD11 circa 73 with SME 3009/Shure v15 III Jico SAS, FD200/ Bronze bearing ADC headshell/ I was using this with The mose/Hercules power supply which I have for the moment moved over to the LP12, Well first impressions of the LP12 ittok were good but after a few hours it just dosnt grab me like the SME does, It does however have better seperation, bass and timing

The Ariston/SME can give you the pleasure of those licks of the cymbals and some unpredictability that only a good vinyl setup can give you but the LP12 Ittok/
OC9 is surprisingly accurate and dare I say it CD like (There I said it) It definately tracks better and has less audible surface noise. and is by no means unpleasent its just that there is no magic there or not to my ears tonight anyway.

I am wondering if anyone has experience of a silver wired ittok. Can it lift the top end sufficiently to warrant the spend, Im just curious what your opinions are

I think my two decks themselves are pretty similar in design and build and I have used the same PS and motor so the test is a fair one I feel. two very different beasts I suppose

cheers

I have a silver wired Ittok done by Dom at Northwest Analogue(great guy,good job and very reasonable price) and it does sound better than before the mod,I don't find any Ittok sounds CD like though,depending on cartridge used it is a better arm than the 3009mk2 improved in my opinion,used the SME for ages pre Ittok:-I would think the preferences you hear are more down to the cartridges than the arms,have you tried switching those over:-I know the V15 isn't an ideal match for the Ittok mechanically but it will work and give you a better idea if it is the arm or the cartridges(I find the OC9 a bit clinical:_cd like if you get my drift)

[spiceyokooko]

The Ariston/SME can give you the pleasure of those licks of the cymbals and some unpredictability that only a good vinyl setup can give you but the LP12 Ittok/
OC9 is surprisingly accurate and dare I say it CD like (There I said it)

Your comparison methodology is flawed in my opinion.

You're comparing an Ariston/SME setup with a Linn/Ittok setup and comparing only the two arms? What about the sonic abilities of the two turntables the arms are mounted on? What about the ancillary equipment you're using with them? In my experience the Linn/Ittok can be system component finicky and needs the very best amplification and speakers to partner it. If you partner it with cheap amps and speakers it will sound cheap and nasty.

In my experience, a correctly setup Linn/Ittok (and I mean correctly setup) partnered with appropriate amplification and speakers will/should sound sonically far better than your Ariston/SME combination.

If you're finding the Ariston/SME sounds better, then either the Linn isn't setup properly or it doesn't like your partnering equipment. I wouldn't even consider silver re-wiring the Ittok until you've sorted out all the other issues.

[brighton123]

Spiceyokooko, The (Early) Ariston RD11 and The Linn LP12 are almost identical, made in the same factory, courtcase etc this is well documented, I was using them with the the same Mose Herc PS hence why I thought that the test was a fair one, I have since done lots of reading on the finer points of LP12 setup and done a bit of tweaking. and improvements can be heard but still the treble in particular is lacking to my ears.

My current amplification, used for both decks is, Angle Audio custom phono pre with battery and preloading options, Tisbury passive pre, Audiolab 8000SX poweramp driving Elvins transmission line floorstanders via chord cable, I wouldnt exactly describe it as cheap amp and speakers but arguably not top flight either.

steve195527 interesting theory re the OC9 I was wondering about the cartridge myself, I do have a Shure M97XE which would be a better match in complience for the Ittok which I could try, this might also indicate whether the OC9 is the cause of a slight but irritating hum I am getting with the LP12.

It is bank holiday weekend so I can do a bit more experimentation and see what gives.

cheers for all your reples.

[spiceyokooko]

Spiceyokooko, The (Early) Ariston RD11 and The Linn LP12 are almost identical, made in the same factory, courtcase etc this is well documented, I was using them with the the same Mose Herc PS hence why I thought that the test was a fair one, I have since done lots of reading on the finer points of LP12 setup and done a bit of tweaking...

I appreciate the Linn and RD80 share the same origins, but the Linn has benefitted from constant development/improvement whereas the RD80 hasn't. You're also using two different cartridges in two quite different arms.

Given you're a long time RD80 user, I must assume you know how to setup the Linn suspension correctly. You mention you've only just acquired the Linn, but have you replaced the springs/grommets and given it an oil change? Are you certain there's no play or wear in the bearing? Have you tested the Ittok for arm bearing play? Have you checked the sub chassis is correctly bolted and attached? Have you leveled the deck and then correctly setup the Linn so the suspension bounces up and down with no sideways drift?

Linns really do need to be setup correctly to give of their best and as I have the same Linn/Ittok you do I know how time consuming and fiddly the job can be, but it makes all the difference in the world. In my experience, I've never liked the earlier SME's on Linns and the Ittok is a far better arm designed specifically to be used on the LP12 which is why I'm struggling to understand how you appear to be getting better results from the RD80/SME. The Linn/Ittok/OC9 should be several notches ahead of the RD80/SME combination.

I do urge you to try the same cartridge in both decks as I think that may tell you a lot about the relative merits of the two setups. There are other improvements you can make to the Linn (depending on which ones it has fitted already) before I'd start thinking about re-wiring the arm. The Ittok is not really the weak link here.

Just my opinion of course.

[steve195527]

Spiceyokooko, The (Early) Ariston RD11 and The Linn LP12 are almost identical, made in the same factory, courtcase etc this is well documented, I was using them with the the same Mose Herc PS hence why I thought that the test was a fair one, I have since done lots of reading on the finer points of LP12 setup and done a bit of tweaking. and improvements can be heard but still the treble in particular is lacking to my ears.

My current amplification, used for both decks is, Angle Audio custom phono pre with battery and preloading options, Tisbury passive pre, Audiolab 8000SX poweramp driving Elvins transmission line floorstanders via chord cable, I wouldnt exactly describe it as cheap amp and speakers but arguably not top flight either.

steve195527 interesting theory re the OC9 I was wondering about the cartridge myself, I do have a Shure M97XE which would be a better match in complience for the Ittok which I could try, this might also indicate whether the OC9 is the cause of a slight but irritating hum I am getting with the LP12.

It is bank holiday weekend so I can do a bit more experimentation and see what gives.

cheers for all your reples.

If your RD11 has the same type of bearing(single pint) as the Linn and is single speed then it is the type similar to the LP12,if it has the two speed pulley with the clutch type mechanism and a ball bearing in the bottom of the bearing then it is not:-that was produced after the "falling out" and the press announcement that stated that the turntable that was the Ariston RD11 was now being produced by Linn and called the LP12

[brighton123]

Thought Id come back on this one as Its been a while. Over the bankk holiday weekend I did do some further experimentation. I started out fitting my M97XE to the ittok on the LP12 which didnt please me at all compared to the OC9 which was as expected really.

I then fitted my 3009 to the LP12 with the OC9 shouldnt work really but actually not too bad, I did increase the mass though with a Sumiko HS12 headshell and adding a little weight at the counterweight end. I had this running for four days until eventually I put the v15 back onto the 3009 in the ADC headshell and put the counterweight back to standard, This sounded as I remember VERY similar to my RD11 with 3009 v15.

My RD11 is the later version circa 73 with seperate ballbearing and originally had a two speed pulley and clutch system with square section belt, for a long time now though I ran it with the Linn single speed pulley and flat belt. This was kinda why I bought the Sondek in the first place. I believed that the single point bearing arrangement was significantly better than the seperate ball, now Im really not sure.

Yes I do know how to set up three point tables, I have a home made rig for the purpose and I also know how long it takes and yes the Linn is definately more sensitive than the Ariston in terms of adjustment, looking at them closely I think this is because the Linn subchassis is thinner and lighter making it more suceptable to the slightest adjustment. Its certainly not voodoo but it is as pointed out painstakingly time consuming.

Anyhow about a week and a half after that a friend of mine who imports Opera Audio equipment and who I was explaining my issues to gave me an ex review Droplet LP3.1 with ST100 arm to try out for the weekend on approval. Out of the box this was set up and running within an hour carrying the OC9 and within 2 hours I was sold, I love it It just plays whats on the records really well and really pleasurably without fuss and without the need to inspect the setup after every side

Its a chinese made thing made of MDF, the bearing is ceramic, the offboard motor looks like it should power a fishtank, the platter is acryllic, The ST100 appears to made out of a fishing rod. basically it feels cheap but sounds lovely.

Needless to say I have now sold the Sondek, V15 Ittok, LP12 motor, and Mose/Herc on ebay for significantly more cash than I parted with for the droplet and am a very happy bunny indeed, Thats my tale so far

As an epilogue

The RD11 now sports the SME with The M97 Its original power supply and a new motor from RS online with the original 2 speed pulley and a new square section belt, This has gone to a friend of mine on permanent loan and he is chuffed to bits with it.

I also have a little spare cash to think about a new phono stage this isnt because I particularly dislike the Angle, its just that I have found myself doing so much enjoyable prolonged listening that I keep flattening the battery and having to wait an hour to listen again while it recharges, I will start another thread on a suitable mains powered replacement in the £500 bracket

cheers all