Wet playing revisited

[Ldg]

This is a long thread, but posted earlier are metrics that support what one hears, that nothing gets worse. And there's no loss of detail, in fact the improved noise floor enhances it, especially in quiet sections.

It's obviously impractical, that is the disadvantage. Though Flavio81 managed it, perhaps still does. I think if I had to play only one track to demonstrate what vinyl is capable of, I would play it wet.

But, horses for courses. Personally, I struck a balance, and only use it for playback where surface noise is degraded.

[steve195527]

This is a long thread, but posted earlier are metrics that support what one hears, that nothing gets worse. And there's no loss of detail, in fact the improved noise floor enhances it, especially in quiet sections.

It's obviously impractical, that is the disadvantage. Though Flavio81 managed it, perhaps still does. I think if I had to play only one track to demonstrate what vinyl is capable of, I would play it wet.

But, horses for courses. Personally, I struck a balance, and only use it for playback where surface noise is degraded.

I find it hard to believe,not saying it isn't so though,that adding a lubricant,which wet playing is,which must by definition must introduce a film between the stylus and the grove doesn't cause a loss of low level information,it is removing some:-the bits that give you the clicks and pops,so why does other information escape this?

[Ldg]

I think it's fair to say no-one knows how thick the film is.

But, one might guess at a number of scenarios in which the film does not adversely affect traceability. As is the case. e.g :

1. The film is thin so as to fill micro voids, but otherwise preserve contact

2. The film is thick, so as to preserve an incompressible fluid layer

3. The film is effectively a thin vapour layour between groove and stylus surfaces

etc etc etc

Who knows. But imperically, it works.

[Twinhit]

I may late to the party fight but......
In this corner we have the fearful and in that corner we have the cheerful.
Call the toss.

IF anything is going to ruin a record, it's those nails used on the older 78s!
You can build a house with those things!

Wet/Dry (no pun intended)humor aside, As one who has owned and used a metal cutting lathe and universal knee lift milling machine, I can vouch that using coolant will cool down both the High Speed Steel (or diamond) cutting tool and the workpiece. IF the cutting tool gets hot, it will dull and it's effective cutting properties will diminish.

Considering the metalcutting lathe, cutting the face on the end of solid billet of x material yields a spiral pattern that is not unlike that found on a vinyl record. The difference is the waveform in the groove. When the lathe's carriage are gear driven, there are minute imperfections that can be found somewhere in the machine. I've run a lathe in which the drive belt was connected by means of "pin and staple" which made for a bump across the belt. Every time that belt joint came across the spindle pully there would be tap that you could feel in the machine. That tap would actually transmit a very slight gouge on an otherwise perfect turn. Cooled or not. IF one were so inclined, they could make
a record out of a disc on the lathe and play back all the imperfections of the machine.

Vinyl, being what it is, is far softer than a diamond stylus. I honestly cannot see how play wet will damage the groove.
IF anything, playing wet would insulate the vinyl from the needle. The solution would be akin to water and the needle akin to a water skis pulled behind the tow boat. Whatever wake is caused by the tow boat is the groove wall profile.
As a result, the only downside to playing wet is that the highs would be slightly muted.

I clean my records 1st, then drown the vinyl with a dripping drenched horsehair bristle brush along the path the needle will follow. Never had a problem with electrocution or shorting my blasphemous Technics SL-1200 MKII.

So... I guess I am in the cheerful corner.

[DustyDave]

I admit I haven't read all 20 pages, but I have a couple of thoughts about this that I didn't see anyone else expressing. One is regarding what seems to be a silly claim that playing a record heats the vinyl to hundreds of degrees. Surely someone in this forum owns one of those laser thermometers. Could anything be easier to test? It's "point-and-shoot"!

Of course, direct observation would seem to contradict the heating idea, anyway. The vinyl used in records softens enough to make those god-awful "bowls" out of records at less than 250F. So, if you're starting at any reasonable room temperature and adding 200 degrees, you'd end up with a record as soft as putty.

That softness that would probably cause the stylus to remove most, if not all, the modulations from the grooves on the first pass. It would be like dragging a trowel across wet cement. You'd end up with no signal left. So, I'm not buying that one, until someone shows me convincing proof.

I think someone over-extrapolated from the knowledge that ice does melt and refreeze as a skate blade passes across it, but the physics are completely different. Which reminds me... whoever said water isn't a solvent must have flunked out of school. Water is "the universal solvent". It just doesn't disolve vinyl or epoxy.

Another is, I suspect that those who claim wet playing ruins a record for dry playing mode weren't using distilled water, and were suffering the effects of mineral residue left behind. There wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar industry devoted to removing those minerals, aka water softening, if they weren't pervasive.

I've never tried it, myself, but the idea has always intrigued me. I might have to give it a whirl on one of these bargain bin crackle-fests.

[Marcie]

This has been a really excellent thread, thanks much to Flavio and ld & others!

Back in the seventies, I used the wet Lencoclean method too. And yes, the records I played wet became unplayable dry afterward. Now I have become convinced that it must been because of deposits that resulted from using Lencoclean, probably not just mineral deposits.

The Lencoclean system is still being sold by another company, but I would stay away from it as it claims to use the original Lencoclean fluid. There's now a competing product called 'Superclean' from a German company called Analogis that is apparently using superior fluid while the handling of the cleaning 'arm' and refill system seems to be much better too, according to customer reviews.

Meanwhile, I have carried out some experiments of myself as well as some outlined by ld and Flavio. For instance, I was able to use wet hygienic alcohol-based household wipes to remove loud pops from records, which were evidently due to dirt being stuck in the grooves. These pops wouldn't go away with normal washing, so I tried this. It worked, with no ill effects afterwards.

I also duplicated some of ld's experiments; again without any ill effects afterwards. Quite the reverse, actually. I would agree with DustyDave that demineralized water is a must. I used a mixture of max 20% denat 97% alcohol, demineralized water, and a few drops of washing up liquid as surfactant. I found that the quantity of washing up liquid is critical in that too much will leave deposits. I will be trying wetting agent (Photoflow or some such) later.

The vinyl-heating argument is obviously nonsense, and thoroughly busted here.

This thread also led me to think we should have a part of the VE website dedicated to "Audio Mythbusters" or maybe even a separate website called http://www.audiomythbusters.com !

[Twinhit]

5 to 1 Distilled Water to Isopropyl Alcohol formula is what a friend of mine and I use.

As for mud-crud in the grooves, sure, it's possible but I think by running wet would soften the mud again, then if you wiped the just played track, you might could clean out the cruddy muddy grooves in the record, wipe dry, run wet, wipe dry run wet again and again until that vinyl is clean, clean.

IMHO the 200+ deg heat thing is a bit rich.
sniff sniff.... a rat??? I kinda think someone wants to sell record brushes, and cleaners and cartridges.
what say you?

[kelvinMunson]

I say, I would rather use a brush to clean my records than an expensive stylus.

[Twinhit]

On the thought of electrostatic electricity and vinyl/stylus.

Maybe I am wrong but thought I'd throw this out there.


http://www.school-for-champions.com/sci ... causes.htm

[Twinhit]

I say, I would rather use a brush to clean my records than an expensive stylus.

How about a toothpick?


A point I ought to make is that you cannot follow a groove as effectively, with a brush, like you can a stylus that actually fits in the groove.

Whether you use a cheap or expensive stylus is up to you.
I would think an elliptical stylus would go a bit deeper than other designs.

[kelvinMunson]

What about a toothpick, is that what you use?

Must be very time consuming ?

Suggest you get yourself a decent RCM.

[Twinhit]

What about a toothpick, is that what you use?

Must be very time consuming ?

Suggest you get yourself a decent RCM.

Sir, I am afraid you missed my modified reply.
IF I may, it is often proven that high quality work
is often done by over long periods of time.
Patience is the virtue of such an artisan.
Sadly, around the world, man has given up the
time honored traditions of working with their hands
and have wholly embraced the technology of machines to do
his bidding.

No sir, I simply run wet and don't mind if you do either.
As for the toothpick: If it is safe for me to clean my teeth with,
then I am sure it won't do my vinyls any harm.

[kelvinMunson]

I'll stick with my Okki Nokki, thanks

[Twinhit]

I'll stick with my Okki Nokki, thanks

Okie Dokey.