reliable review websites?

[Ldg]

..you are taking a stance and viewing this as necessarily a bad thing since a review on a loaned piece of gear must be compromised since the gear is loaned by a manufacturer.

No, my point is that bias is applied as soon as the manufacturer chooses the reviewer. I'm also making the point that the initiative and motive is commercial, not philanthropic.

Ed, you're silent on my suggestion that no cable manufacturer is likely to choose ld to review a cable, despite the likelyhood of an extremely objective and impartial review. And if you concede that, then i reckon you've lost this argument, Ed. It's pretty obvious, IMO.

It sort of takes care of itself if the manufacturer is ethical...or not. They benefit the most from impartial reviews.

No, they benefit most from a favourable review.

The manufacturer must be willing to take the chance that they have done their homework and produced a quality component.

But manufacturers' 'homework' includes all the usual aspects of promotion and selling to the reviewer. Not least, choosing reviewers based on likelyhood of empathy, relationship building, briefings, expectation setting etc etc. With the aim of reducing the risk of a poor review. You said you're a businessman, Ed, you must know how such things are done !

[EdAInWestOC]

LD,
If I can get Audioquest to send a pair of their battery powered IC or speaker cables, I would wait without taking a breath for the review...

I'm not sure I agree with your tilt about manufacturers but I concede that your point, as well as mine, are valid. This forum may be a good place to find out.

Maybe your Audioquest review could be first? Dare we hope for such a thing? Should we ask for additional batteries to be sent with the cables?

I found these 1m 72V ICs for a possible review: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/13181/AudioQuest-Sky_-__Analog_Audio_Interconnect_-_DBS_1_meter_72_volt-Analogue_Interconnect

Are they still 72V by European standards? Do you have to switch the left and right cables to compensate for the fact that you drive on the other side of the road? Why do I keep on asking questions?

Ed

[Ldg]

Are they still 72V by European standards?

Blimey, 72V dc bias. What are we trying to do, connect hifi or kill flies ?

Even if Audioquest could be coerced, I wouldn't partake, for the reasons already set out. Also to avoid what seems the inevitable lawsuit where the only winners would be the lawyers, as always in such things. Besides, coersion doesn't count !

[EdAInWestOC]

..you are taking a stance and viewing this as necessarily a bad thing since a review on a loaned piece of gear must be compromised since the gear is loaned by a manufacturer.

No, my point is that bias is applied as soon as the manufacturer chooses the reviewer. I'm also making the point that the initiative and motive is commercial, not philanthropic.

Ed, you're silent on my suggestion that no cable manufacturer is likely to choose ld to review a cable, despite the likelyhood of an extremely objective and impartial review. And if you concede that, then i reckon you've lost this argument, Ed. It's pretty obvious, IMO.

It sort of takes care of itself if the manufacturer is ethical...or not. They benefit the most from impartial reviews.

No, they benefit most from a favourable review.

The manufacturer must be willing to take the chance that they have done their homework and produced a quality component.

But manufacturers' 'homework' includes all the usual aspects of promotion and selling to the reviewer. Not least, choosing reviewers based on likelyhood of empathy, relationship building, briefings, expectation setting etc etc. With the aim of reducing the risk of a poor review. You said you're a businessman, Ed, you must know how such things are done !

LD,
So, I take it from your responses that you have a deep abiding trust of high-end audio manufacturers? You didn't take the bait on my suggestion as to the review of the Audioquest IC.

Ed

[Ldg]

So, I take it from your responses that you have a deep abiding trust of high-end audio manufacturers? You didn't take the bait on my suggestion as to the review of the Audioquest IC.

No, by choosing me as a reviewer you have actually created bias in the outcome, Ed, which exactly proves my point. You are aware of my negative disposition toward cable effects, and my professional background and rigour in exploring and measuring such things. You'll be aware of the review I posted of an audiophile interconnect versus a 2m twin and earth last time this cropped up, included recorded samples, blind A/B tests and measurements. You'll recall I didn't disclose the specific brand or cable for reasons already set out here !

Trust doesn't come into it. It's about primary motivation and aims. Which, for manufacturers arranging reviews and loan gear, is commercial not philanthopic. Unlike the vast majority of content and posts here.

In this case, you seem to be carving yourself a role as a broker for a review process, Ed. Apart from it seeming a fair question to wonder 'why?', I've already set out how I find such reviews devaluing and objectionable, so I'm hardly likely to partake. I note you didn't rush in with an offer of indemnity against being sued should the review be considered flawed, or even argue such a thing wasn't possible. It is ultimately a commercial venture with loss and damage at stake. No worries, I'd join you in, and if we can't pay up we'll do a runner and start a little test house in exile somewhere

Are you not exercising classic commercial sales techniques to try to overcome my arguments here, Ed, BTW ? Isolate my points of objection and persist no matter what........but my points are fundamental, and you keep furnishing examples to illustrate them !

[EdAInWestOC]

..you are taking a stance and viewing this as necessarily a bad thing since a review on a loaned piece of gear must be compromised since the gear is loaned by a manufacturer.

No, my point is that bias is applied as soon as the manufacturer chooses the reviewer. I'm also making the point that the initiative and motive is commercial, not philanthropic.

Ed, you're silent on my suggestion that no cable manufacturer is likely to choose ld to review a cable, despite the likelyhood of an extremely objective and impartial review. And if you concede that, then i reckon you've lost this argument, Ed. It's pretty obvious, IMO.

It sort of takes care of itself if the manufacturer is ethical...or not. They benefit the most from impartial reviews.

No, they benefit most from a favourable review.

The manufacturer must be willing to take the chance that they have done their homework and produced a quality component.

But manufacturers' 'homework' includes all the usual aspects of promotion and selling to the reviewer. Not least, choosing reviewers based on likelyhood of empathy, relationship building, briefings, expectation setting etc etc. With the aim of reducing the risk of a poor review. You said you're a businessman, Ed, you must know how such things are done !

LD,
So, I take it from your responses that you have a deep abiding trust of high-end audio manufacturers? You didn't take the bait on my suggestion as to the review of the Audioquest IC.

Ed

LD,
Let me see? If a manufacturer chose me to review something there would be a bias imparted by that selection to my review? How? The selection would indicate a bias on the manufacturers part for a particular reviewer but that reviewer is not obliged to follow suit and respond.

Yeah, I know the world is what it is but there is nothing to oblige a reviewer to write anything about a product unless that reviewer agrees. If a reviewer is found to be biased then either don't publish the review or remove the review after that bias is uncovered. And print something about the tainted reviews.

I read the American magazine Stereophile regularly. Some people point their crooked finger at them and claim that they have a bias. I have read that magazine each month (with the exception of a period when my kids were growing up) since it started publishing back in the 1970s. In all those years they have reviewed a lot of gear and in my opinion that magazine's main bias is towards expensive equipment and that's OK. They are supposed to be a high-end stereo magazine and choose the best equipment to review.

I've yet to pick up on a bias where they published something about a piece of gear that was flatly wrong. They regularly find fault with gear that is lent to them for the purpose of reviewing. I don't always agree with their assessment of gear but that is an impossible standard to set.

We cannot agree amoung ourselves, here, on this forum, when it comes to a variety of hardware and software. System synergy and many other variables effect the outcome enough to make our opinions on these things different. How can we expect a magazine to be any different?

For the record...I'm not arguing. I've been married three times I have three children (all from my last marriage) so all of the arguing is out of me. Well...I would argue if someone interrupted my American Football game or made my beer warm but thats about it.

I have few preconceived notions about manufacturers. I suppose some are good and some are...well you know. Some seem like they are better than others. Some actually seem to be holding their prices down better than others and some just fleece the public. Just check out that 72V IC. Caveat Emptor.

And no I didn't take the bait...

Have a good evening,
Ed

[Ldg]

You nearly blinked then, Ed

If a manufacturer chose me to review something there would be a bias imparted by that selection to my review? How? The selection would indicate a bias on the manufacturers part for a particular reviewer but that reviewer is not obliged to follow suit and respond.

The manufacturer will be aware of disposition and empathies of possible reviewers, and seems likely to choose on that basis for greatest chance of a favourable outcome. Foolish not to. At minimum. Also doing what's possible to support and facilitate a favourable outcome. It's obvious.

The other side of the coin, it would equally be possible to indentify and avoid those less favourably disposed or unempathetic. I venture that is why you would "wait without taking a breath for the review..." as you put it, were you to be able to arrange for me to review those 72V IC cables. Of course you will already be aware of my disposition, and could feel pretty sure of a good show ! Quite right probably, we could likely sell tickets You were trying to set up a rumble in the jungle, Ed !

In that case, you seem to have used your awareness of my disposition and empathies to bring about what you see as a probable outcome of the review. Which illustrates my point, again.

I read the American magazine Stereophile regularly.

That can be cured with therapy these days

Some actually seem to be holding their prices down better than others and some just fleece the public. Just check out that 72V IC. Caveat Emptor.

That reminds me, you're silent on the lawsuit indemnity, Ed. Will you at least buy the tickets and make our place of exile somewhere nice and warm ?

And no I didn't take the bait...

And neither did I

Likewise, have a good day, Ed.

[EdAInWestOC]

..you are taking a stance and viewing this as necessarily a bad thing since a review on a loaned piece of gear must be compromised since the gear is loaned by a manufacturer.

No, my point is that bias is applied as soon as the manufacturer chooses the reviewer. I'm also making the point that the initiative and motive is commercial, not philanthropic.

Ed, you're silent on my suggestion that no cable manufacturer is likely to choose ld to review a cable, despite the likelyhood of an extremely objective and impartial review. And if you concede that, then i reckon you've lost this argument, Ed. It's pretty obvious, IMO.

It sort of takes care of itself if the manufacturer is ethical...or not. They benefit the most from impartial reviews.

No, they benefit most from a favourable review.

The manufacturer must be willing to take the chance that they have done their homework and produced a quality component.

But manufacturers' 'homework' includes all the usual aspects of promotion and selling to the reviewer. Not least, choosing reviewers based on likelyhood of empathy, relationship building, briefings, expectation setting etc etc. With the aim of reducing the risk of a poor review. You said you're a businessman, Ed, you must know how such things are done !

LD,
Of course its commercial. This whole thing is about business, but this does not imply any nefarious wrong doing. It might but one never knows.

I think you would be a superb cable reviewer. Impartial, open minded and ready to render an opinion that would likely sway countless thousands to buy a cable that would otherwise but relegated to the back bin of cable history...

And of course they benefit from a favorable review. But they stand to benefit much less from a rigged favorable review, if the buying public finds out such a review is rigged. Bad publicity is bad publicity and a good reputation takes a long time to gain and a minute to lose...yada, yada, yada. But thats true.

Of course I know such things are done. Thats why it would be better if reviews were in places like this one. Where people like you, JaS and others could keep an eye on what's going on. As it is, there is too little to keep them honest.

Ed

[Ldg]

Of course its commercial. This whole thing is about business...

As you would have it, Ed !

LD, I think you would be a superb cable reviewer. Impartial, open minded and ready to render an opinion that would likely sway countless thousands to buy a cable that would otherwise but relegated to the back bin of cable history...

......or was it a dream ?.....

And of course they benefit from a favorable review. But they stand to benefit much less from a rigged favorable review, if the buying public finds out such a review is rigged.

Define 'rigged' ? Would you not include constructively arranging to maximise the chance of a favourable outcome, as we have been discussing ? I would.

Where people like you, JaS and others could keep an eye on what's going on. As it is, there is too little to keep them honest.

Ed, this is entirely JaS' site. And, just like you, I am simply a grateful member here. I happen to appreciate the non-commercial content and forums of VE, that's all. I think it's one of the aspects that makes it great.

[lini]

Just to throw in another opinion, I wouldn't be opposed to manufacturer/dealer initiated and sponsered user reviews, provided these were clearly marked as such, e.g. by putting 'em in a dedicated subforum. Probably not even, if the reviewers would be allowed to keep the stuff for free or get a good rebate as reward - 'cause I think that we've got enough trustworthy regulars, of whom I'd think they wouldn't want to keep equipment that didn't leave a really good impression anyway.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: Well, and maybe one would also need to provide some kind of "do not approach me with commercial enquirements"-option and -flag - best pre-activated, so that it's an opt-in instead of an opt-out.

[Ldg]

I wouldn't be opposed to manufacturer/dealer initiated and sponsered user reviews, provided these were clearly marked as such, e.g. by putting 'em in a dedicated subforum.

You mean as commercial forum sites already do ? It would be a real pity here, IMO. And it's already well served elsewhere, for those who would indulge. IIRC, you already post on some of these, lini. Personally, I don't feel comfortable posting gratis content on those sites.

P.S.: Well, and maybe one would also need to provide some kind of "do not approach me with commercial enquirements"-option and -flag - best pre-activated, so that it's an opt-in instead of an opt-out.

That would help keep the endless stream of requests for me to review cables at bay

[lini]

*giggle* I just noticed an English oopsy on my side - so, if you wonder what those "enquirements" above were supposed to mean, please pretend I had written "inquiries" there... Enquirements... *lol* Must be the age...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[MonkeyBoy]

Here's another site you might find useful and enjoyable. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/

[JaS]

Oops I hadn't noticed that this was still being discussed

Just to be clear, I'm definitely not considering relaxing the trade rules about business promotion in forum posts. In fact following a couple more cases of shilling by traders recently, the rules have been tightened to further restrict the use of avatars and signatures, to push home the message that forum posts shouldn't be used to promote business interests.

I'm not opposed to members reviewing loan equipment in the articles section, just not in forum posts. The software for writing reviews/articles is already in place but I'm not sure who would do the reviewing, or where this equipment would come from? From the responses so far there seem to be plenty of sites that already do professional/sponsored reviews for manufacturers, but if any members are seriously interested in writing similar reviews here, either for loaned or owned components, I'm happy to provide the space to do it.

Regards,
JaS