Benz Micro Ace L vs Denon DL-304

[Marcie]

Hi all,
I'm considering buying either the Benz Micro Ace L or the Denon DL-304. There's a substantial price difference so I was wondering whether the extra outlay on the Benz is worthwhile. I am familiar with other Denons: the 110,160, and the 103 I all own, but I'm not familiar with Benz carts. The new cart is to be used in my Kenwood KD-990.
I would appreciate any and all comments.
Thx, Marcie

[lennyw]

Am in the same boat, considering these two. The Denon is a "classic", or so I'm told, but the Benz is a Stereophile Class B and was very well praised by his highness, MF. Lusting after a microglider, but unable to afford it, I'd hoped the Ace might be a poor man's equivalent, but have yet to hear it (have used the Denon 304 since I got it for my Rega P3).

[Marcie]

Am in the same boat, considering these two. The Denon is a "classic", or so I'm told, but the Benz is a Stereophile Class B and was very well praised by his highness, MF. Lusting after a microglider, but unable to afford it, I'd hoped the Ace might be a poor man's equivalent, but have yet to hear it (have used the Denon 304 since I got it for my Rega P3).

Lenny, how did you like your 304, particularly regards soundstaging and 3D imaging?

The Ace SH and Ace SL were also very favorably reviewed in UK's Hi-fi News (both awarded "Outstanding product"). However, they also liked the Grado Gold1 ("Highly Commended" award) and I can't stand the thing.

I can get good deals on both here in Europe: 365 euro for the DL-304 and 600 euro for the Ace S L, M, or H.
Note the differences between the 'old regular' cheaper Ace and the Ace S series, though. I almost fell into that trap myself.

[Popey]

Hopefully, I can let you know what the Benz sounds like this weekend, assuming my turntable is ready to be picked up (fingers crossed).

[satanfriendly]

I use both at the moment (although the ACE is the m version) and I wrote a bit of a review sometime back on the virtues of a number of MC's:

viewtopic.php?t=38482

One against the other? I think it is going to depend on what your musical expectations are. Both are not really fussy about the general balance of systems as neither has any extreme which pose an issue.

Cost wise the 304 is excellent value and very hard to beat, obviously the Benz has a higher price, but whether in the big picture it is offering a performance justifiable to the difference it is probably questionable.

However if it was to come down to where my preference would lie, then it would be the Benz. It digs deeper in to the music and offers a very precise picture of events, more involving, faster transients and generally more dynamics. It can be over clinical whereas the Denon offers a smoother more refined texture. At least to me in my systems. The DL304 can be kinder to your musical collection as the Benz will happily show up bad recordings to be precisely this; which can be annoying.

As for imaging, instument position and width both are excellent without question and tracking ability with both is outstanding.

It may just come down to price at the end of the day.

Good luck

[bauzace50]

HI,

In agreement with satanfriendly, I had one DL-304, which I briefly loved until it died from a broken cantilever. The 304 is different from the DL-103 line in terms of cantilever construction, damping, coil construction, tracking force, and sonic signature (slightly more "alive" than the 103 series).

I've never heard the Benz you mention, but it should be very good, too. As satanfriendly says, it may come down to price? But you have (at least) two VE members who vouch for the 304's good sounds!

Happy hunting,
bauzace50

[lennyw]

Lenny, how did you like your 304, particularly regards soundstaging and 3D imaging?

TBH my opinion on this is worth very little. It's the only TT/Cart I've ever owned, and have nothing to compare it to. I've had the 304 for many years (ca15) and the only thing I feel now is that perhaps the cartridge has had it's day -- though I'd like to verify it somehow.

I can get good deals on both here in Europe: 365 euro for the DL-304 and 600 euro for the Ace S L, M, or H.

I'd be interested to know where you get a 600 EURO price from, the best I've seen is 680. Perhaps you can PM me if it's against forum rules to post links to external sales sites.

[Marcie]

Lenny, PM'd you.

[Marcie]

I use both at the moment (although the ACE is the m version) and I wrote a bit of a review sometime back on the virtues of a number of MC's:

viewtopic.php?t=38482
Good luck

Thank you Satanfrienldy! Reading your write-up, I would conclude that both carts are excellent, the Benz being more excellent than the Denon... So basically, I can't go wrong with either.

However, I do have a few concerns, one of which is the matter of arm matching. Both the Denon and the Benz have fairly high compliance, especially for MCs. The Benz has a compliance of 25cu (measured in Hi-fi News) and the Denon has something like 30-35cu (from the top of my head; Denon's spec is lower because they measure it at 100 Hz instead of the more usual 10 Hz, a point most people seem to miss).

The Kenwood has an effective arm mass of 17.5g with its standard headshell, which seems rather heavy in view of the compliance of the carts. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[satanfriendly]

I don't know where HiFi News come up with a compliance for the Benz at 25cu when everyone else publishes 15cu? At 15 and using the resonance calculator it results in a nice and healthy 8Hz. A pretty good match

As for the Denon I can only find estimated values of 19-25cu on the web for 10Hz and in which case not so brilliant at 6-7Hz (depending on the actual figure). May be someone looking in has a better opinion of the DL304 in a heavier arm?

There is another option though. One of the other cartridges I wrote on may well be suited to your arm, the Blue Note (or Golden Note as they are now) Boboli. This really is a superb cartridge. High output and a nice balance between the ACE and the 304. 8cu and 11.5g, loads easily in to 47k and offers a nice sense of neutrality. Great tracking and a massive wide sound stage. UK prices tend to be around the £500 mark. It remains one of my personal favourites and every revisit makes me realise why I like it.

[Marcie]

I don't know where HiFi News come up with a compliance for the Benz at 25cu when everyone else publishes 15cu? At 15 and using the resonance calculator it results in a nice and healthy 8Hz. A pretty good match

As for the Denon I can only find estimated values of 19-25cu on the web for 10Hz and in which case not so brilliant at 6-7Hz (depending on the actual figure). May be someone looking in has a better opinion of the DL304 in a heavier arm?

I too, was very surprised. But these are actual measurements not specifications. Very few magazines (whether print or on-line) nowadays actually measure equipment to this extent, or, at all for that matter. Instead, they publish specs.

Hi-Fi News measured the ACE SH in their Sept 2011 issue as 21 vertical/25 horizontal. In the July 2012 issue they measured the Ace SL at 25/25 cu. A licensed Benz ACE SL clone, the Heed Zene, also measured as 25/25cu. I do think Hi-Fi News know their objective stuff (i.e. measurements), I'm more concerned with their subjective findings. HFN's measurement suite is actually a commercial product of the editor Paul Miller.

The estimate of the 304 is based on measurements of the Denon DL-160: 27 cu (again Hi-Fi News). As I recall the 304 is quite a bit more compliant than the 160, so that's how I arrived at the figure for the 304 off the top of my head. It all corroborates to some extent with the measured compliance of the DL-103 too (vs specced), that's been measured as 13cu (German magazine). Furthermore, the low recommended VTF of the 304 would, but not necessarily must, indicate high compliance as well (for MCs).

[satanfriendly]

It actually makes you wonder 'which is correct?', which doesn't help really help one little bit.

Personally I'd be guided by the manufacturers figures. As much as I know Paul Miller is an extreme and pedantically correct reviewer it does seem strange that his findings are so out of line with those of Benz themselves.

The Denon is a different kettle of fish being quoted at 100Hz. Ah well, everyone to their own even if it does make life more complex.

I wouldn't be to driven by a low VTF indicating high compliance as surely this comes down to so many other influences, stylus shape, cantilever mass/material, damping etc. Take for example the Boboli, 12g, 8cu and a VTF of 1.2+/-0.2 or so Blue Note enthustiastically claim. So far I've not met one owner who can run at 1.2g though and most go for 1.4, but still relatively low and yet low compliance.

[goatbreath]

I don't know if I am stating the obvious here,,I have the slightly later version of the same turntable..The Kenwood KD 1070..I have a few headshells of differing mass..If you put on one of the ADC headshells,,the mass can be taken down quite a bit...The Technics headshell is quite low mass too..The actual Kenwood headshell is quite high mass I believe..

From my research,,that sounds a bit of a posh way to put things..
From my findings,,reading different stuff on the internet,,the arm mass without headshell is 5.5 grams..

So running the Kenwood arm with an ADC headshell you get 5.5 plus 7.6 grams,,so you then have a 13 gram arm.Just over a gram heavier than a Rega RB250,,but near the same figure..

The Denon DL110 seems to be higher compliance than stated from reports I have read..But it acts like it is below 20 cu the way it actually acts on tonearms..It works way better on the 9.4 gram headshell than it does on the 7.6 gram ADC one..

This is from another recent thread...

"""""""""""Sumiko 11.4 gms without finger lift.. + Audio Technica AT95e 5.7 gms

Altai headshell 9.4 gms + Denon DL110 4.8gms,,I have removed the flip down stylus guard

ADC 7.6 gms + Shure M97xe 6.6 gms,,running with stabiliser brush engaged.

From what I can read it seems the arm without headshell is 5.5 gms approx..I usuakky add a touch more on for cartridge screws,,

AT 95e plus headshell etc..call it 23 gms..
Denon DL110 + hs call it 20gms
Shure M97xe...+ HS a bit over 20gms

As for the compliances,,there may be all types of argument,,but I would say listed low to high..AT95e,,,DL110,,,M97xe.."""""""""""

Also an excuse to post a picture of the KD1070,,really great sounding and well made turntable..

[Marcie]

It actually makes you wonder 'which is correct?', which doesn't help really help one little bit.

Personally I'd be guided by the manufacturers figures. As much as I know Paul Miller is an extreme and pedantically correct reviewer it does seem strange that his findings are so out of line with those of Benz themselves.

The Denon is a different kettle of fish being quoted at 100Hz. Ah well, everyone to their own even if it does make life more complex.

I wouldn't be to driven by a low VTF indicating high compliance as surely this comes down to so many other influences, stylus shape, cantilever mass/material, damping etc. Take for example the Boboli, 12g, 8cu and a VTF of 1.2+/-0.2 or so Blue Note enthustiastically claim. So far I've not met one owner who can run at 1.2g though and most go for 1.4, but still relatively low and yet low compliance.

I certainly agree on the pedantic bit; he will never miss an opportunity to let people know how great he is! But these findings were actually confirmed by other 'serious' mags such as the German mag "LP" which is wholly dedicated to vinyl playback. Anyway, from my own experiments, it *sometimes* seems to matter little if there's a mismatch between cart and arm because it can still sound excellent. Probably, maybe, possibly, if the arm/table arm/cart are of really good quality it just *may* matter less. I have about 10 what I would call serious tables, so I have a lot of gear to experiment with.

Anyway, thanks for the pointer to Boboli. I'm not familiar with it so I'll look into it. Thank you for your valuable input SF, much appreciated!